What if...

I play mental "What if.." games when I fly, trying to imagine the best
way to handle an in-flight emergeny.

One of the aircraft I fly is a 1982 Piper Turbo Arrow IV.
Nowhere in the POH does it mention the emergency procedure for a
turbocharger failure resulting in an oil fed fire in the engine
compartment.

Do you drop the gear or leave it up?

My thinking is to drop it to keep the nose gear tire from being consumed
as additional fuel and to move more air through the engine compartment
while in a dive/steep descent to blow out a fire

Anyone with actual experience?

Other thoughts?

"john smith" wrote in message
...
I play mental "What if.." games when I fly, trying to imagine the best
way to handle an in-flight emergeny.

One of the aircraft I fly is a 1982 Piper Turbo Arrow IV.
Nowhere in the POH does it mention the emergency procedure for a
turbocharger failure resulting in an oil fed fire in the engine
compartment.

Do you drop the gear or leave it up?

My thinking is to drop it to keep the nose gear tire from being consumed
as additional fuel and to move more air through the engine compartment
while in a dive/steep descent to blow out a fire

If your engine is out, why create more drag?

Why put more air into the engine compartment to feed the fire?

Blowing out an engine fire is NOT like blowing out a match.


Anyone with actual experience?

First - fire extinguisher made ready.

Second - get the plane on the ground PRONTO, but where I want it, not where
a draggy, gear down configuration might put me in a worse spot than I
already am.


Other thoughts?

If the smoke and fire are outside the cabin, KEEP THEM THERE.


--
Matt Barrow
Performace Homes, LLC.
Colorado Springs, CO

On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 09:30:24 -0700, Matt Barrow wrote:

Blowing out an engine fire is NOT like blowing out a match.

Cessna 172 POHs speak of putting out the fire by diving to a given speed,
the goal being to create an incombustible fuel/air mix. If that speed
doesn't work, we're supposed to try various others.

- Andrew

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

Why put more air into the engine compartment to feed the fire?

Blowing out an engine fire is NOT like blowing out a match.


Anyone with actual experience?


Back in the early 70s, we were taught to dive in the event of an engine
fire.

The rational I was given was that even as slow as 70 mph, the fire would be
getting way too much air, and chances are more will either blow the fire
out, or not do much to fuel the situation.

Second was that it was the closest way to the ground, and you need to get
there NOW.

I'm certainly no expert, and my information could be dated at best. So if
there is something new to be learned here, I would like to hear it too.

Max

Matt Barrow wrote:
"john smith" wrote in message
...
I play mental "What if.." games when I fly, trying to imagine the best
way to handle an in-flight emergeny.

One of the aircraft I fly is a 1982 Piper Turbo Arrow IV.
Nowhere in the POH does it mention the emergency procedure for a
turbocharger failure resulting in an oil fed fire in the engine
compartment.

Do you drop the gear or leave it up?

My thinking is to drop it to keep the nose gear tire from being consumed
as additional fuel and to move more air through the engine compartment
while in a dive/steep descent to blow out a fire

If your engine is out, why create more drag?

Why put more air into the engine compartment to feed the fire?

Blowing out an engine fire is NOT like blowing out a match.


Anyone with actual experience?

First - fire extinguisher made ready.

Second - get the plane on the ground PRONTO, but where I want it, not where
a draggy, gear down configuration might put me in a worse spot than I
already am.

Other thoughts?

If the smoke and fire are outside the cabin, KEEP THEM THERE.

I've been advised to slip if it can keep
the smoke out of the cockpit.

In article ,
"Matt Barrow" wrote:

Second - get the plane on the ground PRONTO, but where I want it, not where
a draggy, gear down configuration might put me in a worse spot than I
already am.

One of the things the POH does say, is that the fast way to get down is
to extend the gear and full flaps.
When you are taking advantage of the turbocharger to go higher, getting
down from over 10,000 to lower altitudes while you're on fire becomes
urgent.
The fastest I have descended, intentionally, is 1300 fpm. That is going
to require at least 8 minutes. When you're on fire, that's a LOOOONG
time!
Can I get 2000 fpm or more? I don't know, I haven't tried it.
At 1300 fpm and the power pulled back, I was up into the yellow arc in
smooth air.
What is the airspeed at 2000 fpm? How long can you fly in the red arc
and not exceed V-dive without breaking the airplane? Theoretically, in
smooth air, forever.
But you have to level out gradually to avoid overloading with G's and
bleed off that airspeed to land. Thats going to add more time.

I did my commercial work in a 182RG.

I was taught Chop(power), Prop(full), Drop(nose down), Gear (at gear speed),
Flaps (initial, then full when in white arc), 60 degree bank away from the
fire, holding airspeed at the top of the white arc. It would get you down
fast, add rudder and we'd see over 2500 fpm down. After about 2 turns of
that demonstration, my DE said... Ok, good enough.

Commercial students that I taught this method to needed to be eased into it,
but after one or two attempts, most found it fun.

Jim



"john smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Matt Barrow" wrote:

Second - get the plane on the ground PRONTO, but where I want it, not
where
a draggy, gear down configuration might put me in a worse spot than I
already am.

One of the things the POH does say, is that the fast way to get down is
to extend the gear and full flaps.
When you are taking advantage of the turbocharger to go higher, getting
down from over 10,000 to lower altitudes while you're on fire becomes
urgent.
The fastest I have descended, intentionally, is 1300 fpm. That is going
to require at least 8 minutes. When you're on fire, that's a LOOOONG
time!
Can I get 2000 fpm or more? I don't know, I haven't tried it.
At 1300 fpm and the power pulled back, I was up into the yellow arc in
smooth air.
What is the airspeed at 2000 fpm? How long can you fly in the red arc
and not exceed V-dive without breaking the airplane? Theoretically, in
smooth air, forever.
But you have to level out gradually to avoid overloading with G's and
bleed off that airspeed to land. Thats going to add more time.

In article ,
"Jim Burns" wrote:

I was taught Chop(power), Prop(full), Drop(nose down), Gear (at gear speed),
Flaps (initial, then full when in white arc), 60 degree bank away from the
fire, holding airspeed at the top of the white arc. It would get you down
fast, add rudder and we'd see over 2500 fpm down. After about 2 turns of
that demonstration, my DE said... Ok, good enough.

Commercial students that I taught this method to needed to be eased into it,
but after one or two attempts, most found it fun.

Thanks Jim.
That gets me to wondering... what about a spin?
A spin will give you a high rate of descent at stall speed.
If the aircraft is not approved for spins, that might lead to an
indecisive moment. Just because it is not approved, does not mean it
will not recover. It just means that it might not have been tested.

Theoretically a spin may get you down faster, but in how many pieces? I'd
hesitate to recommend a spin. The distraction of the fire, smoke, heat,
fear could very easily cause you to forget about the ground rushing up at
you. Properly executed and practiced to proficiency a spin is, of course,
controllable and predictable, but I wouldn't try one blind folded with one
arm tied behind my back.
Jim

"john smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Jim Burns" wrote:

I was taught Chop(power), Prop(full), Drop(nose down), Gear (at gear
speed),
Flaps (initial, then full when in white arc), 60 degree bank away from
the
fire, holding airspeed at the top of the white arc. It would get you
down
fast, add rudder and we'd see over 2500 fpm down. After about 2 turns
of
that demonstration, my DE said... Ok, good enough.

Commercial students that I taught this method to needed to be eased into
it,
but after one or two attempts, most found it fun.

Thanks Jim.
That gets me to wondering... what about a spin?
A spin will give you a high rate of descent at stall speed.
If the aircraft is not approved for spins, that might lead to an
indecisive moment. Just because it is not approved, does not mean it
will not recover. It just means that it might not have been tested.

On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 12:15:08 -0400, john smith
wrote:

Once-upon-a-time I allegedly was asked to bid an insurance job on a
Turbo Arrow IV.

The airplane involved was on it's way to the East Coast to cross the
big pond.

Was cruising around 10,000 ft msl over a local rural county airport
with a 4200 ft runway (750 ft msl) when a fitting failed on top of the
turbo.

The fitting had apparently been added to tee an hourmeter oil pressure
switch into the oil pressure supply line to the turbo. If I remember
correctly, this supply line is also tee'd to the oil pressure gage in
the cabin.

When the fire erupted, the pilot secured the engine (fuel selector
prop mixture mags master), dropped the flaps and gear, and descended
in a slipping circular pattern to the field, and landed/rolled out on
the runway.

Being a single-engine constant-speed NON-feathering propeller, the
engine continued to windmill, the engine-driven oil pump emptied the
engine sump oil though the failed fitting, feeding the fire.

The first thing that I noted when examining the 'plane was that the
bracket that the extend retract cylinder mounts to on the bottom of
the firewall/belly angle was only attached by a small portion of the
firewall. the belly skin behind it was burnt/virtually gone. The
bracket was rotated down/forward approximately 60 degrees from it's
"normal" position.

Damage forward of the firewall was localized "below" and "aft" of the
broken fitting. I do not recall the firewall being perforated, but the
upholstery material/insulation blanket on the cabin side of the
firewalll showed signs of some serious heat.

The belly skin was rippled from the firewall to where the fuselage
bottom "breaks" upward to the empennage, between the center hat
sections that run longitudinally on the belly. The belly skin was
perforated immediately behind the firewall, but only (only??!!) had a
couple of small holes in it. The carpet/tunnel trim down the center of
the cabin had evidence of overheating, and several burnt spots.

As I recall, the bottom cowling was heat-damaged, but the only place
the fire exited the cowling was out the center nose gear opening.

IMHO, the pilot did exactly the right thing. I would "dirty-up" the
airplane with whatever I could hang out in the breeze so I could
descend at the highest rate.

Have never experimented with time to descend dirty vs. clean, but I do
know that it takes f-o-r-e-v-e-r to come back down clean after doing a
turbo critical altitude check.

Have also allegedly burned a couple of brush piles, and there ain't
nuthin that burns quite like an old tire...

Long story short, haven't been there done that, but I've seen it done.

TC

One of the aircraft I fly is a 1982 Piper Turbo Arrow IV.
Nowhere in the POH does it mention the emergency procedure for a
turbocharger failure resulting in an oil fed fire in the engine
compartment.

Do you drop the gear or leave it up?

My thinking is to drop it to keep the nose gear tire from being consumed
as additional fuel and to move more air through the engine compartment
while in a dive/steep descent to blow out a fire

Anyone with actual experience?