P-39's, zeros, etc.

I am glad someone is doing some research in this area as early operations
have long been ignored. I think the contribution of P-39's in holding the
line early in the war has long been ignored. I am not sure what you want
with your question. Obviously the reports are taken from different points
of view and the perceptions are shrouded by the fog of war which includes
memory being confused by adrenalin rush and fatigue. I am sure a lot of
what I write, if not all, you are already aware of.

Before I start, I had an opportunity to compare accounts of one engagement
of P-39's that was described by Saburo Sakai in Samurai but was also
mentioned in US reports. I will give you this info before I discuss yours
to illustrate the difficulty of reliability of reports. Your friend is
welcome to the information:

Here is the comment in Samurai:

"[on april 30] the Allies returned our next strafing attack with a
beautifully executed run by twelve P-39's against our airfield [Lae] and
heavily damaged nine bombers and three fighters. We caught the Airacobras
on their withdrawl and shot down two without losses on our part,.....neither
Nishizawa nor I was able to bring down a plane." Samuri, page 113-114.

I realize that in many ways Caiden has been discredited, however, the fact
of this engagement has been confirmed by the following:

"The very first combat mission of the Airacobra was flown by the 8th Pursuit
Groups 35 and 36th group on April 30, 1942....
"The official V fighter Command Victory Records devote a single line to that
mission: "" Greene, George B., Jr. Major, 1 zero, 15:07L, Salamaua 35th
Squadron".

"The officical report by Lt. Col. Boyd D. Wagner [I assume this is the
famous Buzz Wagner] dated May 4, 1942, tells a different story:

"On Friday, April 30th, 13 P-39D's [and odd number--your report also
mentions an odd number of P-39's, there must have been such a need for a/c
in combat that standard operating procedure must have been ignored] took
off from Port Moresby
on a ground strafing mission against Lae Airdrome, 180 miles. Approach was
made on Lae from 50 miles out from sea to avoid detection. When about 20
miles out 4 planes were sent ahead to engage the Japanese security patrol
over Lae Drome.
Top cover drew enemy security patrol off to the East of the drome and no
resistance by air was encountered during the strafing. A line of 13 to 15
bombers were strafed on a sea approach in a three-three plane element.
[interesting that the US planes were flying in three plane elements,
assumedly this was planned from the start of the mission to maybe cover the
airfield the breadth of three planes?] The planes in each element were
disposed in echelon right [ in Samurai, the strafing run was described as
beautiful--did Caiden have access to US reports or was this really out of
Sakais memory or perhaps his notes?]. Our strafing planes were then were
attacked from above by several zero fighters. Belly tanks were dropped
immediately [note that the aircraft attacked the field with their vulnerable
belly tanks still on and apparently not at full throttle!] and throttles
opened. Our formation began to pull away from the zeros when the last 4
P-39's in formation engaged in combat with three zeros [this was probably a
japanese "element" with a leader and two wingmen]. In the meantime more
Zeros appeared and it is estimated there were 12-13 altogether. The P-39's
were hopelessly outnumbered so the entire formation [nine aircraft?]
turned back and a terrific dogfight ensued. As a result of this low
altitude dogfight four zeros and three P-39's were shot down. [!] All
P-39's going down had been hit in the cooling system as a glycol spray could
be seen streaming out behind while all zeros shot down went down burning.
All three P-39 pilots were safe upon landing, either bailing out or crash
landing on the beach." Squadron Signal, P-39 In Action.

Interesting perspective. Japs claim 2 P-39's with no losses. P-39's
claim four zeros with three losses. Both sides agree as to the success of
the strafing attack.

So many times hits were recorded and turned out to be misses. Even when
fire and smoke was reported.

Damage to vessels did not always leave oil slicks or debris. I would say it
was highly unlikely that the vessel attacked was sunk.

It is certainly a possibility that these were the same vessels that were
attacked on three different occassions.

The P-39's could have been engaged and the A-24's not even known about it.
The fact that the zeros were reported in numbers divisible by three is
interesting. At this time zeros flew in groups of three, not in the pairs
or finger four formations. There would be a single lead pilot with two
wingmen.

Due to the A-24's on the deck, the P-39's might not have been aware of their
problems after the attack.

The missed rendevous between the P-39's and the B-25's was pretty typical of
the period.

The report of the zeros not engaging is not surprizing. It is even
possible that the zeros were under orders not to engage with enemy aircraft,
or they might have mistaken the B-25's for their own bombers.

Even if they recognized that the B-25's were hostile and chose not to
engage, this is not the first time that zero pilots had shown off in front
of the enemy.

Zeros were handicapped as most had their radios removed.

The zeros the P-39's reported that did not engage may not even had seen the
P-39's.


My guess is that the the officer would credit one 1500 ton ship damaged,
5-11 barges damaged. In all possibility, there were only six vessels
engaged from the start to the finish.

Al



----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Mark"
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 1:13 PM
Subject: P-39s, Zeros & A-24s


Little item from my friend doing P-39 research:

7 P-39s escort 7 A-24s on an anti-shipping strike to Buna summer 1942.
Flying
at 9,000 feet, 3 Zeros going the opposite direction at 11,000 feet spot
them
and peel off in an attack. Descending dogfight ensues until Zeros break
off at
4,000 feet. P-39 pilots make no claims, report no losses among themselves
or
A-24s, which they catch up to as they make their bomb runs on a convoy of
one
large and four small vessels escorted by one warship which they identify
as a
destroyer. The flight home is uneventful, with no further enemy contact.
They
confirm one bomb hit on the large ship, which seems to inflict no serious
damage, and six broad misses.
A-24s do not report any interception by Zeros on the way to the target and
mention no dogfight. Report attacking one 1,500 ton-class cargo ship in a
convoy of four 100-ton class coastal vessels and one subchaser escort. AA
fire
downs one A-24 during the dive. This plane releases its bomb as it spins
out
of control and crashes into the sea. No parachutes. It's bomb falls far
from
the convoy. Five bombs bracket the large cargo vessel in a close pattern
and
one strikes the ship amidships. This ship is left on fire, dead in the
water,
heeled over and in a sinking condition. As they recover from their dives,
the
A-24s are hit by Zeros. Two are shot down immediately, crashing in flames
into
sea. Two more survive long enough to make it to the beach where they
crash
land and the crews are observed to escape into the bush. A fifth is badly
damaged but manages to make it to an emergency strip where it crash lands.
Only one returns home.
The next day 4 B-25s go out to bomb the convoy but find no sign of it.
Nor do
they see any debris or oil slick in the area of the A-24 attack. They
were to
have a P-39 escort but it never shows up. They are intercepted by 6 Zeros
which circle them, then fly parallel to them for a few minutes performing
slow
rolls before departing without making any attempt to attack. The B-25s
sweep up
the Buna coast until they spot 6 beached barges being unloaded. They bomb
and
strafe these, destroying them and the cargo offloaded onto the beach.
They
report moderate AA fire, with one B-25 being holed several times and the
bombardier and co-pilot wounded. There is no fighter opposition.
The 6 P-39s dispatched as escorts report the B-25s are not at the
rendevous
point so they proceed on a sweep of the Buna coastal area, discover
Japanese
unloading 5 barges and strafe them, leaving all burning. They also strafe
supplies stacked on the beach and tents observed under trees just inland
from
the beach, making repeated passes until expending all their ammunition.
There
is no anti-aircraft fire. As they are departing they observe 9 Zeros
patrolling the beach at 6,000 feet but these make no aggressive moves and
maintain altitude.

If you were an intelligence officer evaluating these reports, what would
you
make of them?


Chris Mark

I am glad someone is doing some research in this area as early operations
have long been ignored. I think the contribution of P-39's in holding the
line early in the war has long been ignored.

I've just read (and will post at the end of the month) the diary of a
sergeant in an RAF (mostly Australian) Buffalo squadron in Malaya in
December 1941. For all the stuff we've been fed over the years about
the dismal performance of the Buffalo--supposedly called the Suicide
Barrel by Australian pilots--there's not one word in there expressing
any reservations about the planes he was servicing, not any admiration
of the Japanese "Zero".

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

Do you know his name? I maintain a list of the Rabaul PWs.

Edward Durand.
An Australian investigation of Japanese war crimes at Rabaul after the war
turned up his name among prisoners held by the Japanese Navy. He would have
been the first AAF fighter pilot captured by the Japs in that theater and i am
sure they would have been very interested in squeezing out every bit of
information he had about US strength and intentions. What a terrible fate for
the young man.


Chris Mark

"old hoodoo" wrote:
I am glad someone is doing some research in
this area as early operations
have long been ignored. I think the contribution
of P-39's in holding the
line early in the war has long been ignored.
I am not sure what you want
with your question. Obviously the reports are
taken from different points
of view and the perceptions are shrouded by
the fog of war which includes
memory being confused by adrenalin rush and
fatigue. I am sure a lot of
what I write, if not all, you are already aware
of.

Before I start, I had an opportunity to compare
accounts of one engagement
of P-39's that was described by Saburo Sakai
in Samurai but was also
mentioned in US reports. I will give you this
info before I discuss yours
to illustrate the difficulty of reliability
of reports. Your friend is
welcome to the information:

Here is the comment in Samurai:

"[on april 30] the Allies returned our next
strafing attack with a
beautifully executed run by twelve P-39's against
our airfield [Lae] and
heavily damaged nine bombers and three fighters.
We caught the Airacobras
on their withdrawl and shot down two without
losses on our part,.....neither
Nishizawa nor I was able to bring down a plane."
Samuri, page 113-114.

I realize that in many ways Caiden has been
discredited, however, the fact
of this engagement has been confirmed by the
following:

"The very first combat mission of the Airacobra
was flown by the 8th Pursuit
Groups 35 and 36th group on April 30, 1942....
"The official V fighter Command Victory Records
devote a single line to that
mission: "" Greene, George B., Jr. Major, 1
zero, 15:07L, Salamaua 35th
Squadron".

"The officical report by Lt. Col. Boyd D. Wagner
[I assume this is the
famous Buzz Wagner] dated May 4, 1942, tells
a different story:

"On Friday, April 30th, 13 P-39D's [and odd
number--your report also
mentions an odd number of P-39's, there must
have been such a need for a/c
in combat that standard operating procedure
must have been ignored] took
off from Port Moresby
on a ground strafing mission against Lae Airdrome,
180 miles. Approach was
made on Lae from 50 miles out from sea to avoid
detection. When about 20
miles out 4 planes were sent ahead to engage
the Japanese security patrol
over Lae Drome.
Top cover drew enemy security patrol off to
the East of the drome and no
resistance by air was encountered during the
strafing. A line of 13 to 15
bombers were strafed on a sea approach in a
three-three plane element.
[interesting that the US planes were flying
in three plane elements,
assumedly this was planned from the start of
the mission to maybe cover the
airfield the breadth of three planes?] The
planes in each element were
disposed in echelon right [ in Samurai, the
strafing run was described as
beautiful--did Caiden have access to US reports
or was this really out of
Sakais memory or perhaps his notes?]. Our strafing
planes were then were
attacked from above by several zero fighters.
Belly tanks were dropped
immediately [note that the aircraft attacked
the field with their vulnerable
belly tanks still on and apparently not at full
throttle!] and throttles
opened. Our formation began to pull away from
the zeros when the last 4
P-39's in formation engaged in combat with three
zeros [this was probably a
japanese "element" with a leader and two wingmen].
In the meantime more
Zeros appeared and it is estimated there were
12-13 altogether. The P-39's
were hopelessly outnumbered so the entire formation
[nine aircraft?]
turned back and a terrific dogfight ensued.
As a result of this low
altitude dogfight four zeros and three P-39's
were shot down. [!] All
P-39's going down had been hit in the cooling
system as a glycol spray could
be seen streaming out behind while all zeros
shot down went down burning.
All three P-39 pilots were safe upon landing,
either bailing out or crash
landing on the beach." Squadron Signal, P-39
In Action.

Interesting perspective. Japs claim 2 P-39's
with no losses. P-39's
claim four zeros with three losses. Both sides
agree as to the success of
the strafing attack.

So many times hits were recorded and turned
out to be misses. Even when
fire and smoke was reported.

Damage to vessels did not always leave oil slicks
or debris. I would say it
was highly unlikely that the vessel attacked
was sunk.

It is certainly a possibility that these were
the same vessels that were
attacked on three different occassions.

The P-39's could have been engaged and the A-24's
not even known about it.
The fact that the zeros were reported in numbers
divisible by three is
interesting. At this time zeros flew in groups
of three, not in the pairs
or finger four formations. There would be a
single lead pilot with two
wingmen.

Due to the A-24's on the deck, the P-39's might
not have been aware of their
problems after the attack.

The missed rendevous between the P-39's and
the B-25's was pretty typical of
the period.

The report of the zeros not engaging is not
surprizing. It is even
possible that the zeros were under orders not
to engage with enemy aircraft,
or they might have mistaken the B-25's for their
own bombers.

Even if they recognized that the B-25's were
hostile and chose not to
engage, this is not the first time that zero
pilots had shown off in front
of the enemy.

Zeros were handicapped as most had their radios
removed.

The zeros the P-39's reported that did not engage
may not even had seen the
P-39's.


My guess is that the the officer would credit
one 1500 ton ship damaged,
5-11 barges damaged. In all possibility, there
were only six vessels
engaged from the start to the finish.

Al



----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Mark"
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 1:13 PM
Subject: P-39s, Zeros & A-24s


Little item from my friend doing P-39 research:

7 P-39s escort 7 A-24s on an anti-shipping
strike to Buna summer 1942.
Flying
at 9,000 feet, 3 Zeros going the opposite
direction at 11,000 feet spot
them
and peel off in an attack. Descending dogfight
ensues until Zeros break
off at
4,000 feet. P-39 pilots make no claims, report
no losses among themselves
or
A-24s, which they catch up to as they make
their bomb runs on a convoy of
one
large and four small vessels escorted by one
warship which they identify
as a
destroyer. The flight home is uneventful,
with no further enemy contact.
They
confirm one bomb hit on the large ship, which
seems to inflict no serious
damage, and six broad misses.
A-24s do not report any interception by Zeros
on the way to the target and
mention no dogfight. Report attacking one
1,500 ton-class cargo ship in a
convoy of four 100-ton class coastal vessels
and one subchaser escort. AA
fire
downs one A-24 during the dive. This plane
releases its bomb as it spins
out
of control and crashes into the sea. No parachutes.
It's bomb falls far
from
the convoy. Five bombs bracket the large
cargo vessel in a close pattern
and
one strikes the ship amidships. This ship
is left on fire, dead in the
water,
heeled over and in a sinking condition. As
they recover from their dives,
the
A-24s are hit by Zeros. Two are shot down
immediately, crashing in flames
into
sea. Two more survive long enough to make
it to the beach where they
crash
land and the crews are observed to escape
into the bush. A fifth is badly
damaged but manages to make it to an emergency
strip where it crash lands.
Only one returns home.
The next day 4 B-25s go out to bomb the convoy
but find no sign of it.
Nor do
they see any debris or oil slick in the area
of the A-24 attack. They
were to
have a P-39 escort but it never shows up.
They are intercepted by 6 Zeros
which circle them, then fly parallel to them
for a few minutes performing
slow
rolls before departing without making any
attempt to attack. The B-25s
sweep up
the Buna coast until they spot 6 beached barges
being unloaded. They bomb
and
strafe these, destroying them and the cargo
offloaded onto the beach.
They
report moderate AA fire, with one B-25 being
holed several times and the
bombardier and co-pilot wounded. There is
no fighter opposition.
The 6 P-39s dispatched as escorts report the
B-25s are not at the
rendevous
point so they proceed on a sweep of the Buna
coastal area, discover
Japanese
unloading 5 barges and strafe them, leaving
all burning. They also strafe
supplies stacked on the beach and tents observed
under trees just inland
from
the beach, making repeated passes until expending
all their ammunition.
There
is no anti-aircraft fire. As they are departing
they observe 9 Zeros
patrolling the beach at 6,000 feet but these
make no aggressive moves and
maintain altitude.

If you were an intelligence officer evaluating
these reports, what would
you
make of them?


Chris Mark




That WAS Buzz Wagner-one of the lucky ones to get out of the Philippines
before the end there. First ace of the war, IIRC.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

On 15 Jul 2003 16:52:33 GMT, ost (Chris Mark) wrote:

What a terrible fate for
the young man.

I'll add his name to the list, if you are quite sure about him and his
fate.

It's a terrible story altogether. See the list at
www.danford.net/prisoner.htm

The initial work was done by a prisoner who survived. There weren't
many of those.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

From: Cub Driver look@my

It's a terrible story altogether. See the list at
www.danford.net/prisoner.htm

The initial work was done by a prisoner who survived. There weren't
many of those.

That looks like Joe Holgun's old list. Holgun was in a heavy bomber group and
ended up a guest of the emperor.
I don't know much about this particular subject, what I have been posting has
come to me second hand from a pal researching it. I've asked him to jump in
here, but he says posting on usenet is a waste of time, time he'd rather spend
doing actual research and writing.


Chris Mark

ost (Chris Mark) writes:

From: Cub Driver look@my

It's a terrible story altogether. See the list at
www.danford.net/prisoner.htm

The initial work was done by a prisoner who survived. There weren't
many of those.

That looks like Joe Holgun's old list. Holgun was in a heavy bomber group and
ended up a guest of the emperor.
I don't know much about this particular subject, what I have been posting has
come to me second hand from a pal researching it. I've asked him to jump in
here, but he says posting on usenet is a waste of time, time he'd rather spend
doing actual research and writing.

Smart guy. But he could do a website and maybe people could fill in
gaps, add knowledge, etc.

--
G Hassenpflug * IJN & JMSDF equipment/history fan

From: Gernot Hassenpflug gernot

Smart guy. But he could do a website and maybe people could fill in
gaps, add knowledge, etc.

I gather his goal is to become, as he calls it, a "PA"---Published Author.
"Author of 'Whatever' " on the c.v. has more exclusivity than website master .


Chris Mark

That looks like Joe Holgun's old list. Holgun was in a heavy bomber group and
ended up a guest of the emperor.

Yes. It was published in "Rabaul" by Henry Sakaida. I borrowed it &
put it on the net, and every year or so somebody writes me with new
information. For example, Holguin's list mispelled the name of Harlan
Pease, so I had no idea when it posted it that the list struck so
close to home. (I live across Great Bay from the former Pease Air
Force Base, now Pease International Tradeport.)

Pappy Boyington's is the most famous name on the list. With several
others, he made it out to Japan before the outright murders began.

www.danford.net/prisoner.htm

I don't know much about this particular subject, what I have been posting has
come to me second hand from a pal researching it. I've asked him to jump in
here, but he says posting on usenet is a waste of time, time he'd rather spend
doing actual research and writing.

Wise man!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

From: Cub Driver loo

Holguin's list mispelled the name of Harlan
Pease, so I had no idea when it posted it that the list struck so
close to home.

Harl Pease flew with the heavy bomber group out of Mareeba. He took a B-17
which was not signed off as flyable and joined a mission to Rabaul in the
summer of '42. He lost an engine on the way out but didn't abort, made it to
Rabaul and was shot down by intercepting Zeros. Various stories floated around
about this episode but the one I have tended to believe is that, with a full
bomb load, full gas load and only three engines, he was unable to maintain
formation and the Zeros naturally fell on him as easy prey and he and his crew
were gone before they got near to bombs away. But the official version is that
he stayed with the formation blasting Jap fighters right and left, made the
bomb drop and only then got shot down. If he was trailing the formation, he
should have aborted and brought his plane home, bombers being worth their
weight in gold in that theater in those days, and not pointlessly gotten it
destroyed. If he was maintaining station in the formation, then his decision
to go on was sensible although it took courage, considering the risks involved.
And I imagine the Jap fighters would have spotted that feathered prop and gone
after him as an easy kill even were he tucked in tight. Another case where the
"real truth" may never be known.


Chris Mark