recording of birth certificate and passport numbers

My flight instructor is now insisting that he has to see and record my
birth certificate and passport before he can fly with me. To my
knowledge this is not required for American Citizens, only foreigners.
I need only show that I am an American Citizen, but don't have to submit
to recording.

Is this true? Where can I find the actual regulation?

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 20:46:15 GMT, Jose
wrote:

My flight instructor is now insisting that he has to see and record my
birth certificate and passport before he can fly with me. To my
knowledge this is not required for American Citizens, only foreigners.
I need only show that I am an American Citizen, but don't have to submit
to recording.

Is this true? Where can I find the actual regulation?

49 CFR 1552.3 paragraphs H and I. You have to get TSA approval for
training if you're a foregin citizen, but documentation of US
citizenship is required to be shown. They have to keep records of the
proof of citizenship for 5 years. AOPAs page summarizing this says
they could make a log entry instead, but knowing how the TSA works I'd
bet they removed that provision and want to see actual photocopies of
the document if they go looking for some reason.

On Jun 10, 1:46 pm, Jose wrote:
My flight instructor is now insisting that he has to see and record my
birth certificate and passport before he can fly with me. To my
knowledge this is not required for American Citizens, only foreigners.
I need only show that I am an American Citizen, but don't have to submit
to recording.

Is this true? Where can I find the actual regulation?

Its true. This is a TSA rule. I have to see your passport or B-
certificate and then either keep a copy or endorse your log that I've
seen it. If you are not a U.S. citizen I need to get TSA pre-approval
for you.

-Robert, CFII & TSA registered provider of foreign flight training

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message oups.com...
On Jun 10, 1:46 pm, Jose wrote:
My flight instructor is now insisting that he has to see and record my
birth certificate ---and--- passport before he can fly with me. To my
knowledge this is not required for American Citizens, only foreigners.
I need only show that I am an American Citizen, but don't have to submit
to recording.

Is this true? Where can I find the actual regulation?

Its true. This is a TSA rule. I have to see your passport ---or--- B-
certificate and then either keep a copy or endorse your log that I've
seen it. If you are not a U.S. citizen I need to get TSA pre-approval
for you.

-Robert, CFII & TSA registered provider of foreign flight training


Key word is -or-, not -and-....

In article .com,
"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

On Jun 10, 1:46 pm, Jose wrote:
My flight instructor is now insisting that he has to see and record my
birth certificate and passport before he can fly with me. To my
knowledge this is not required for American Citizens, only foreigners.
I need only show that I am an American Citizen, but don't have to submit
to recording.

Is this true? Where can I find the actual regulation?

Its true. This is a TSA rule. I have to see your passport or B-
certificate and then either keep a copy or endorse your log that I've
seen it. If you are not a U.S. citizen I need to get TSA pre-approval
for you.

-Robert, CFII & TSA registered provider of foreign flight training

A copy of my birth certificate and my passport?
Are CFI's required to be bonded now?
This is a requirement ripe for identiy theft.

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:46:51 -0400, john smith
wrote:

A copy of my birth certificate and my passport?

- OR - not - and -.

The flight school is required to keep a photo copy. I had to cough up
a passport to get my TSA logbook endorsement two years ago. The
endorsement includes my passport number.

Are CFI's required to be bonded now?
This is a requirement ripe for identiy theft.

You have a point.

On Jun 10, 4:46 pm, Jose wrote:
My flight instructor is now insisting that he has to see and record my
birth certificate and passport before he can fly with me. To my
knowledge this is not required for American Citizens, only foreigners.
I need only show that I am an American Citizen, but don't have to submit
to recording.

Is this true? Where can I find the actual regulation?

Jose
--

The regs are vague. It uses language such as f'light school,
employees, supervisors etc.. as if all flight instruction only takes
place at large establishments. These regs were written by people who
have never seen a small airplane up close. Even part 61, which is
written by aviation experts, has a lot of holes, so it is not
reasonable to expect the TSA regs to make any kind of aviation sense.

To answer your question, yes it does say you have to keep a copy of
the passport or other document used to prove citizenship. It doesn't
say the copy has to be a photocopy. It could be a simple entry in the
instructor's records. But even if an over-zealous CFI wants to take a
photocopy, how many pages is he supposed to copy? Does he have to copy
all 24 pages, or just the first page?

I would love to see one of these cases turn into a legal battle. Would
the loose definitions used in the TSA regs stand up in court?

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message ups.com...

I would love to see one of these cases turn into a legal battle. Would
the loose definitions used in the TSA regs stand up in court?



Of course, if bush gets his justice dept the way he wants it...

Peter Clark wrote:
On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 20:46:15 GMT, Jose
wrote:


My flight instructor is now insisting that he has to see and record my
birth certificate and passport before he can fly with me. To my
knowledge this is not required for American Citizens, only foreigners.
I need only show that I am an American Citizen, but don't have to submit
to recording.

Is this true? Where can I find the actual regulation?
At my flying club they keep photocopies of the appropriate passport
page. I am from Australia orginally, and speak 'Australian' English,
which ****es off ATC occasionally! My flying instructor was quite happy
to find out that I am a dual national, and hence they did not need to
submit stuff to the FAA.

James.




49 CFR 1552.3 paragraphs H and I. You have to get TSA approval for
training if you're a foregin citizen, but documentation of US
citizenship is required to be shown. They have to keep records of the
proof of citizenship for 5 years. AOPAs page summarizing this says
they could make a log entry instead, but knowing how the TSA works I'd
bet they removed that provision and want to see actual photocopies of
the document if they go looking for some reason.

On Jun 10, 4:07 pm, B A R R Y wrote:
On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:46:51 -0400, john smith
wrote:



A copy of my birth certificate and my passport?

- OR - not - and -.

The flight school is required to keep a photo copy. I had to cough up
a passport to get my TSA logbook endorsement two years ago. The
endorsement includes my passport number.

Are CFI's required to be bonded now?
This is a requirement ripe for identiy theft.

You have a point.

That one of the reasons I choose to not keep copies of this paperwork
and instead just make the endorsement that I've seen it. The whole
thing makes little sense. Some FBOs are not accepting B-certificates
as well and require passports (ref: allATP)

-Robert