Best Fighter For It's Time

"Charles Talleyrand" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
My question is this: Which fighter had the clearest advantage over it's
the other fighters of it's time frame?

For example, the Fokker Eindekker would clearly lose to an F-14. However,
the
Eindekker had a large advantage over other fighters when it was
introduced.
An F-14, though a fine plane, did not have so clear cut an advantage over
it's contemporaries.

Planes clearly NOT on the list

Albatros (not clearly better than a Spad)
Spitfire (was about as good as a Me-109)
F-14 (not clearly better than an F-15)

Planes ON the list

Fokker Eindekker
Me-262
F-4 (clearly better than the Mig-21 and the Mirage (maybe))


Ahem, err, the F-14 was not "clearly better" than the F-15?

Not only is the plane more maneuvreable at lower speeds (bellow 450kts) and
speeds over Mach 1, or in posessiong of a far superior weapons system, but
it had - until the AIM-120 was introduced on the F-15C MSIP-II Eagles - also
a distinct superiority in medium-range, and it remains superior to anything
world-wide in long-range arena.

Besides, the total combat score for the F-14 is also (at least) two times
better than that of the F-15.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq; War in the Air, 1980-1988
http://www.schifferbooks.com/militar...764316699.html

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

"Tom Cooper" waxed lyrical
:

Besides, the total combat score for the F-14 is also (at least) two
times better than that of the F-15.


Errr. . as I understood the Tomcat's score stands at something in
the high forties - something like 5 from the US Navy and forty-odd
from Iran, whilst the F-15's stands at something over 100, 30
something for the USAF, a few (four? two Phantom and two Mirage
F-1) for the Saudis and the balance with the IAF, mainly over the
Bekaa in 1982. So as far as I'm aware the F-14's score is something
less than half the F-15's (unless the Tomcat scored a quiet 150
somewhere to give it a ratio of (and I quote) "(at least) two times
better than that of the F-15" Could you cite sources for your claim
please? Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, certainly
wouldn't be the last!

--
--------
Regards
Drewe
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity

Drewe Manton wrote in message .4...
"Tom Cooper" waxed lyrical
:

Besides, the total combat score for the F-14 is also (at least) two
times better than that of the F-15.


Errr. . as I understood the Tomcat's score stands at something in
the high forties - something like 5 from the US Navy and forty-odd
from Iran, whilst the F-15's stands at something over 100, 30
something for the USAF, a few (four? two Phantom and two Mirage
F-1) for the Saudis and the balance with the IAF, mainly over the
Bekaa in 1982. So as far as I'm aware the F-14's score is something
less than half the F-15's (unless the Tomcat scored a quiet 150
somewhere to give it a ratio of (and I quote) "(at least) two times
better than that of the F-15" Could you cite sources for your claim
please? Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, certainly
wouldn't be the last!

Err... no! ;-))
The story with 40 kills is based on the Mullahs taking away something
like 70% of IRIAF's air-to-air kills and crediting them to the IRGC
air-defence units after the war with Iraq.

IRIAF F-14's score goes into 120+, with some 30 probables more (so,
yes, it's very likely around 150) - for three confirmed losses, plus
two LARAF Su-22s, two MiG-23s, and an Iraqi Mi-8 shot down by USN
F-14s. This is opposed by something like 70 US and IDF/AF kills scored
by F-15s, in exchange for two probable losses. BTW, IRIAF F-4s scored
over 100 too; F-5E/F's score shouldn't be too far either.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq; War in the Air, 1980-1988
http://www.schifferbooks.com/militar...764316699.html

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

Err... no! ;-))
The story with 40 kills is based on the Mullahs taking away something
like 70% of IRIAF's air-to-air kills and crediting them to the IRGC
air-defence units after the war with Iraq.

IRIAF F-14's score goes into 120+, with some 30 probables more (so,
yes, it's very likely around 150) - for three confirmed losses, plus
two LARAF Su-22s, two MiG-23s, and an Iraqi Mi-8 shot down by USN
F-14s. This is opposed by something like 70 US and IDF/AF kills scored
by F-15s, in exchange for two probable losses. BTW, IRIAF F-4s scored
over 100 too; F-5E/F's score shouldn't be too far either.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq; War in the Air, 1980-1988
http://www.schifferbooks.com/militar...764316699.html

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

I will probably buy your book one day but I have to ask what kind of evidence
did you get to see in order to validate these claims? Have Iranian claims been
verified against admitted Iraqi losses? Given the secretive nature of both
regimes I have to wonder how accurate these fiqures really are. Does any other
nation confirm the Iranian victory claims? Does the Iraqi order of battle and
other sources really support 300 plus losses over 8 years? What do/did the
Soviets have to say about the exchange ratio? How many Iraqi wrecks can be
accounted for in Iran?

John Dupre'

I will probably buy your book one day but I have to ask what kind of
evidence
did you get to see in order to validate these claims? Have Iranian claims
been
verified against admitted Iraqi losses? Given the secretive nature of
both
regimes I have to wonder how accurate these fiqures really are. Does any
other
nation confirm the Iranian victory claims? Does the Iraqi order of battle
and
other sources really support 300 plus losses over 8 years? What do/did
the
Soviets have to say about the exchange ratio? How many Iraqi wrecks can
be
accounted for in Iran?

Fair questions, John.

1.) What kind of evidence is there?
Actually multiple: starting from eyewitness accounts, via comprehensive
official records (including gun-camera shots, photographs of the wreckage
etc.), down to intel reports (via FOIA inquiries). In over 80% of the cases
we were very well able to cross-check the infos.

If you're not sure should you purchase a copy or not, try to get the volume
104 of the AirEnthusiast (published March this year), to see the article
"Fire in the Hills", which is detailing the fighting during only two smaller
Iranian offensives, undertaken October-November 1982. Examining the claims
for the "Mi-24 shot down an F-4 Phantom", or an "F-14 shot down six Iraqis
within few seconds" (which can be found also on this NG) to the last detail,
it's perfectly illustrating the wealth of sources we were able to use, and
the way it was possible to cross-examine the evidence.

2.) Were claims verified against admitted losses?
Against those officially admitted by Iraqi authorities: no. That is
impossible to do, as these barelly admited 20 own aircraft as lost during
the war, while issurd alone over 100 claims for Iranian F-14 shot down...

Otherwise, see point 1: in fact, we're better able to confirm what we're
talking about than most of those who published anything about the Israelis.

3.) Does any other nation confirm Iranian claims?
Nation: not. Service: yes (several of them).

4.) Does the Iraqi order of battle and other sources really support 300 plus
losses over 8 years?
In fact, they support a loss of something like 450 aircraft and approx 150
helicopters.

5.) What do/did the Soviets have to say about the exchange ratio?
Except that they were losing their own planes and pilots sent to Iraq for
testing as well, they are - in general - either as quiet as a grave or
babbling nonsence (the Archives of the Defence Ministry, however, remain
closed when it comes to this topic). Nevertheless, we've found several of
them (and few people from some other countries: East Germans, Poles etc.)
who were there - and ready to talk - too.

6.) How many Iraqi wrecks can be accounted for in Iran?
Don't know: the research is far (very far) from being over, but official
records (most of these containing photographs) exist for 250-300. Over 100
Iraqi planes were shot down over the Persian Gulf, and others were lost
elsewhere, where their wreckage could not be found.

I hope that helps.


Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq; War in the Air, 1980-1988
http://www.schifferbooks.com/militar...764316699.html

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

I will probably buy your book one day but I have to ask what kind of
evidence
did you get to see in order to validate these claims?

1.) What kind of evidence is there?
Actually multiple: starting from eyewitness accounts, via comprehensive
official records (including gun-camera shots, photographs of the wreckage
etc.), down to intel reports (via FOIA inquiries). In over 80% of the cases
we were very well able to cross-check the infos.

3.) Does any other nation confirm Iranian claims?
Nation: not. Service: yes (several of them).


4.) Does the Iraqi order of battle and other sources really support 300 plus
losses over 8 years?
In fact, they support a loss of something like 450 aircraft and approx 150
helicopters.


Lots of other stuff in reply as well.

Thanks so much for clarifying those points. Your book now goes close to the top
of my wish list. Fascinating stuff.

Any list or account of fighter or helicopter aces?

John Dupre'

Charles Talleyrand wrote:

My question is this: Which fighter had the clearest advantage over it's
the other fighters of it's time frame?

Not that I expect to head off the no doubt hundreds of posts that will follow because versionsof
this question are a perennial favorite on the NG, but the correct reply is that your question is
far too general for any answer to be meaningful.

Guy

"Ed Rasimus" a écrit dans le message de
...

As for the Mirage, I've sat in my F-4 and watched a
Mirage III do absolute magic at high altitude. No superiority for the
venerable Phantom there.


If it's not classified, can you tell us where it was? Australia? Israël?
France? Somewhere else? Just curious...

Regards,
ArVa

"ArVa" wrote:

"Ed Rasimus" a écrit dans le message de
.. .

As for the Mirage, I've sat in my F-4 and watched a
Mirage III do absolute magic at high altitude. No superiority for the
venerable Phantom there.


If it's not classified, can you tell us where it was? Australia? Israël?
France? Somewhere else? Just curious...

It's a story I've told here before. It was a Spanish Mirage III out of
Valencia. I was tasked as a "faker" or A/A target--F-4C fully loaded
with three tanks off a KC-135 in the Med east of Gibraltar. Profile
was A/B at the coast of Spain above FL 400. Supersonic run all the way
to Madrid. With three tanks, got just above the mach at the coast. As
the C/L tank went dry, hit 1.3 M. By the time the outboard went dry I
was at 1.5 and finally just over mach 1.6 at FL 460 as I approached
Madrid.

Picked up a Mirage intercepting me by his contrail. He did a
magnificent conversion into firing parameters just as I hit Madrid
TACAN. I eased out of A/B and zoomed into this attack, passing through
FL 630 as I slowed below the mach, then spiraled down through 20,000
with the Mirage firmly (and quite comfortably camped in firing
position). The guy was good and the airplane was great.

We also used to get intercepted by Mirage IIIs of the Spanish AF while
deploying to Turkey from Spain. Flight of four on the wing of a
tanker, the Mirage would join up, then do a level 360 back to the wing
at FL 310--apparently without effort. I would hate to have fought one
at altitude.

At low alt, maybe there would be a chance, but in those days before
"look down/shoot down" Doppler radar, it would have been very
challenging. I've got great respect for the Mirage.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

In article ,
"Charles Talleyrand" wrote:

My question is this: Which fighter had the clearest advantage over it's
the other fighters of it's time frame?

For example, the Fokker Eindekker would clearly lose to an F-14. However,
the
Eindekker had a large advantage over other fighters when it was introduced.
An F-14, though a fine plane, did not have so clear cut an advantage over
it's contemporaries.

Planes clearly NOT on the list

Albatros (not clearly better than a Spad)
Spitfire (was about as good as a Me-109)
F-14 (not clearly better than an F-15)

Planes ON the list

Fokker Eindekker
Me-262
F-4 (clearly better than the Mig-21 and the Mirage (maybe))



F-16
F-16 was a return to the fighter concept: manueverability, range, speed
-- in spades!


F-22
F-22 is a quantum leap in capability: supercruise, stealth,
maneuverability, range, fire control system. Nothing else comes close!

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