Led lights for glider trailers

Was it in this group were someone asked about Led lights for glider
trailers.

Met this guy today he does good work.

http://www.lazer.com.au/sbcleds.shtml

Mal

At 09:54 10 July 2007, Mal wrote:
Was it in this group were someone asked about Led lights
for glider
trailers.

Met this guy today he does good work.

http://www.lazer.com.au/sbcleds.shtml

Mal


I don't remember (at least recently anyways) seeing
a thread about LED lights for trailers. However, I
think LED's are a great idea, BUT... I just urge anyone
buying them to look into the flash rate (they are constantly
blinking as opposed to solidly on like incandescents)
of lights you are investigating and choose the highest
rate possible. Reason being, it is VERY annoying and
distracting to be driving at night, and to have a set
of very bright taillights 'strobe' a dotted line across
your vision as you scan your eye across them. The lower
the flash rate, the more exaggerated the problem is.
I am very surprised DOT has not set some kind of minimum
standards as to flash rate (as well as better guidelines
to headlight lumen maximum/spectrum range, anyone else
hate those ultra-bright purple blue headlights?).
Remember, if it is distracting to other drivers, you
are increasing your chances of an accident as opposed
to promoting safety so please do your homework before
purchasing.

Paul Hanson
"Do the usual, unusually well"--Len Niemi

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 09:45:40 GMT, "Mal" wrote:

Was it in this group were someone asked about Led lights for glider
trailers.

Met this guy today he does good work.

http://www.lazer.com.au/sbcleds.shtml

Mal

But does he carry spinner hubcaps?...;-)

Paul Hanson wrote:

I don't remember (at least recently anyways) seeing
a thread about LED lights for trailers. However, I
think LED's are a great idea, BUT... I just urge anyone
buying them to look into the flash rate (they are constantly
blinking as opposed to solidly on like incandescents)
of lights you are investigating and choose the highest
rate possible. Reason being, it is VERY annoying and
distracting to be driving at night, and to have a set
of very bright taillights 'strobe' a dotted line across
your vision as you scan your eye across them. The lower
the flash rate, the more exaggerated the problem is.
I am very surprised DOT has not set some kind of minimum
standards as to flash rate (as well as better guidelines
to headlight lumen maximum/spectrum range, anyone else
hate those ultra-bright purple blue headlights?).
Remember, if it is distracting to other drivers, you
are increasing your chances of an accident as opposed
to promoting safety so please do your homework before
purchasing.

There are plenty of places selling brake/turn/running light units using
LEDs that display exactly as the incandescent units do (no
flashing/strobing, just on or off). In the USA, LED lights are very
common on all sizes of trucks and buses, and none of them flash.

I replaced the standard incandescent units on my Cobra trailer and my
motorhome with LED units. They are much brighter, particularly the
trailer units, as the incandescent units drew enough current to lower
the voltage at the lamp.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Eric,

I couldn't figure the "flashing" comment either, unless he was referring to
what sometimes happens with a non-electronic flasher without enough
load - - e.g. if you replace your turn signal incandescent lights with LED
units, the load won't be enough to operate the OEM flasher. This can be
corrected by either installing a suitable electronic flasher or by
installing a load resister in parallel with both turn signals.

Also good is to install a 3rd brake light at the top of the trailer fin. It
may be necessary to make a wedge or bracket so that the LED fixture is
perpendicular to the ground (LED's used in these fixtures have a relatively
narrow beam angle as compared to incandescent lights). A relay is used for
the "logic" circuit with the coil driven by one turn signal and the NO
contact connected to the other. Both turn/brake lights on together, then the
3rd brake light works.

Newer Cobra trailers have a bigger tail light fixture installed semi-flush.
A shame, since it's still not good quality and the larger hole in the
trailer means you can't use standard round truck LED lights easily.

I used Maxxima LED fixtures on my trailer, reasonable price and good
quality.

bumper


"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:7BTki.9017$ZO4.6321@trndny05...
Paul Hanson wrote:

I don't remember (at least recently anyways) seeing
a thread about LED lights for trailers. However, I
think LED's are a great idea, BUT... I just urge anyone
buying them to look into the flash rate (they are constantly
blinking as opposed to solidly on like incandescents)
of lights you are investigating and choose the highest
rate possible. Reason being, it is VERY annoying and
distracting to be driving at night, and to have a set
of very bright taillights 'strobe' a dotted line across
your vision as you scan your eye across them. The lower
the flash rate, the more exaggerated the problem is.
I am very surprised DOT has not set some kind of minimum
standards as to flash rate (as well as better guidelines
to headlight lumen maximum/spectrum range, anyone else
hate those ultra-bright purple blue headlights?). Remember, if it is
distracting to other drivers, you
are increasing your chances of an accident as opposed
to promoting safety so please do your homework before
purchasing.

There are plenty of places selling brake/turn/running light units using
LEDs that display exactly as the incandescent units do (no
flashing/strobing, just on or off). In the USA, LED lights are very common
on all sizes of trucks and buses, and none of them flash.

I replaced the standard incandescent units on my Cobra trailer and my
motorhome with LED units. They are much brighter, particularly the trailer
units, as the incandescent units drew enough current to lower the voltage
at the lamp.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

About the flashing. I am not referring to any mode
of load applied to the lights (like putting on your
hazzards, or using a turn signal), I am talking about
the light cluster units themselves.
Not all LED lights for vehicles are created equal.

A great deal of them do NOT light up like an incandescent
bulb. In fact, most of them I have seen do not. Most
have a little circuit board in them, which aside from
regulating voltage, dictate how many flashes per second
they have while engaged in different modes.
Yes, in the US a lot of buses/trucks/etc have LEDs,
which IS clearly a superior technology, if properly
designed. Unfortunately a great deal (not all mind
you) of them DO possess what I call the 'strobe effect',
for lack of a better term, I am harping on. This effect
happens while they fully on (constant voltage), since
they are set to flash say, oh maybe...40-200 times
per second, which appears to be on like an incandescent
at a steady glance, but not when you run your eyes
across it while it is stationary. I have spent a LOT
of time on the road, particularly at night and I can
assure you that many of the vehicles equipped with
LEDs are using a type that has this highly distractive
circuit built into them. I fully agree that LED's are
the way to go, all I am saying is please, on behalf
of all others on the road including me, buy good ones
that either flash so quickly that it is undetectable,
or do not flash at all like an incandescent. There
are many types available, all you have to do before
buying one, is turn it on (apply the voltage), then
move your eyes across it quickly. Does it make a solid
red streak, or did it leave the imprint of a dotted
line? Flashing lights are distracting, thats all. A
little homework goes a long way, with any purchase.
Here are a few links to other discussions about this
very same phenomenon that I now realize plagues many
more people than myself: (Granted it is a UK forum,
but it touches on the same effect, and if you want
I'm sure I can find more and from the US)

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/vi...8808&highlight
=#118808

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/vi...539&postdays=0
&postorder=asc&start=0

Glad you guys just happened to get LEDs that work well,
and I agree, the third brake light is indeed a good
idea.

Paul Hanson



At 23:12 10 July 2007, Bumper wrote:
Eric,

I couldn't figure the 'flashing' comment either, unless
he was referring to
what sometimes happens with a non-electronic flasher
without enough
load - - e.g. if you replace your turn signal incandescent
lights with LED
units, the load won't be enough to operate the OEM
flasher. This can be
corrected by either installing a suitable electronic
flasher or by
installing a load resister in parallel with both turn
signals.

Also good is to install a 3rd brake light at the top
of the trailer fin. It
may be necessary to make a wedge or bracket so that
the LED fixture is
perpendicular to the ground (LED's used in these fixtures
have a relatively
narrow beam angle as compared to incandescent lights).
A relay is used for
the 'logic' circuit with the coil driven by one turn
signal and the NO
contact connected to the other. Both turn/brake lights
on together, then the
3rd brake light works.

Newer Cobra trailers have a bigger tail light fixture
installed semi-flush.
A shame, since it's still not good quality and the
larger hole in the
trailer means you can't use standard round truck LED
lights easily.

I used Maxxima LED fixtures on my trailer, reasonable
price and good
quality.

bumper


'Eric Greenwell' wrote in message
news:7BTki.9017$ZO4.6321@trndny05...
Paul Hanson wrote:

I don't remember (at least recently anyways) seeing
a thread about LED lights for trailers. However, I
think LED's are a great idea, BUT... I just urge anyone
buying them to look into the flash rate (they are
constantly
blinking as opposed to solidly on like incandescents)
of lights you are investigating and choose the highest
rate possible. Reason being, it is VERY annoying and
distracting to be driving at night, and to have a
set
of very bright taillights 'strobe' a dotted line across
your vision as you scan your eye across them. The
lower
the flash rate, the more exaggerated the problem is.
I am very surprised DOT has not set some kind of minimum
standards as to flash rate (as well as better guidelines
to headlight lumen maximum/spectrum range, anyone
else
hate those ultra-bright purple blue headlights?).
Remember, if it is distracting to other drivers, you
are increasing your chances of an accident as opposed
to promoting safety so please do your homework before
purchasing.

There are plenty of places selling brake/turn/running
light units using
LEDs that display exactly as the incandescent units
do (no
flashing/strobing, just on or off). In the USA, LED
lights are very
common on all sizes of trucks and buses, and none of
them flash.



"Do the usual, unusually well"--Len Niemi

Yep, they do flash so as to increase the percieved brightness by driving the
LED to a brighter output in the 50% on cycle while avoiding some of the
heat build up with the off cycle. But, I always thought that was at more
than 100 Hz where the on-off flashing would not be perceivable - at least by
the majority of the population. I can't perceive the 'dotted streaks' you
speak of.

Just curious, Paul. What was the lowest computer CRT monitor refresh rate
you can live with? (The new CFL backlit LCD's don't flash.)

Bill Daniels


"Paul Hanson" wrote in message
...
About the flashing. I am not referring to any mode
of load applied to the lights (like putting on your
hazzards, or using a turn signal), I am talking about
the light cluster units themselves.
Not all LED lights for vehicles are created equal.

A great deal of them do NOT light up like an incandescent
bulb. In fact, most of them I have seen do not. Most
have a little circuit board in them, which aside from
regulating voltage, dictate how many flashes per second
they have while engaged in different modes.
Yes, in the US a lot of buses/trucks/etc have LEDs,
which IS clearly a superior technology, if properly
designed. Unfortunately a great deal (not all mind
you) of them DO possess what I call the 'strobe effect',
for lack of a better term, I am harping on. This effect
happens while they fully on (constant voltage), since
they are set to flash say, oh maybe...40-200 times
per second, which appears to be on like an incandescent
at a steady glance, but not when you run your eyes
across it while it is stationary. I have spent a LOT
of time on the road, particularly at night and I can
assure you that many of the vehicles equipped with
LEDs are using a type that has this highly distractive
circuit built into them. I fully agree that LED's are
the way to go, all I am saying is please, on behalf
of all others on the road including me, buy good ones
that either flash so quickly that it is undetectable,
or do not flash at all like an incandescent. There
are many types available, all you have to do before
buying one, is turn it on (apply the voltage), then
move your eyes across it quickly. Does it make a solid
red streak, or did it leave the imprint of a dotted
line? Flashing lights are distracting, thats all. A
little homework goes a long way, with any purchase.
Here are a few links to other discussions about this
very same phenomenon that I now realize plagues many
more people than myself: (Granted it is a UK forum,
but it touches on the same effect, and if you want
I'm sure I can find more and from the US)

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/vi...8808&highlight
=#118808

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/vi...539&postdays=0
&postorder=asc&start=0

Glad you guys just happened to get LEDs that work well,
and I agree, the third brake light is indeed a good
idea.

Paul Hanson



At 23:12 10 July 2007, Bumper wrote:
Eric,

I couldn't figure the 'flashing' comment either, unless
he was referring to
what sometimes happens with a non-electronic flasher
without enough
load - - e.g. if you replace your turn signal incandescent
lights with LED
units, the load won't be enough to operate the OEM
flasher. This can be
corrected by either installing a suitable electronic
flasher or by
installing a load resister in parallel with both turn
signals.

Also good is to install a 3rd brake light at the top
of the trailer fin. It
may be necessary to make a wedge or bracket so that
the LED fixture is
perpendicular to the ground (LED's used in these fixtures
have a relatively
narrow beam angle as compared to incandescent lights).
A relay is used for
the 'logic' circuit with the coil driven by one turn
signal and the NO
contact connected to the other. Both turn/brake lights
on together, then the
3rd brake light works.

Newer Cobra trailers have a bigger tail light fixture
installed semi-flush.
A shame, since it's still not good quality and the
larger hole in the
trailer means you can't use standard round truck LED
lights easily.

I used Maxxima LED fixtures on my trailer, reasonable
price and good
quality.

bumper


'Eric Greenwell' wrote in message
news:7BTki.9017$ZO4.6321@trndny05...
Paul Hanson wrote:

I don't remember (at least recently anyways) seeing
a thread about LED lights for trailers. However, I
think LED's are a great idea, BUT... I just urge anyone
buying them to look into the flash rate (they are
constantly
blinking as opposed to solidly on like incandescents)
of lights you are investigating and choose the highest
rate possible. Reason being, it is VERY annoying and
distracting to be driving at night, and to have a
set
of very bright taillights 'strobe' a dotted line across
your vision as you scan your eye across them. The
lower
the flash rate, the more exaggerated the problem is.
I am very surprised DOT has not set some kind of minimum
standards as to flash rate (as well as better guidelines
to headlight lumen maximum/spectrum range, anyone
else
hate those ultra-bright purple blue headlights?).
Remember, if it is distracting to other drivers, you
are increasing your chances of an accident as opposed
to promoting safety so please do your homework before
purchasing.

There are plenty of places selling brake/turn/running
light units using
LEDs that display exactly as the incandescent units
do (no
flashing/strobing, just on or off). In the USA, LED
lights are very
common on all sizes of trucks and buses, and none of
them flash.



"Do the usual, unusually well"--Len Niemi

Paul Hanson wrote:
About the flashing. I am not referring to any mode
of load applied to the lights (like putting on your
hazzards, or using a turn signal), I am talking about
the light cluster units themselves.
Not all LED lights for vehicles are created equal.

A great deal of them do NOT light up like an incandescent
bulb.

I'm not sure it's relevant - I'm talking about DOT approved units sold
all over the USA. I have not seen the effect you are talking about on
any vehicle - cars, trucks, buses, or trailers - and I've never heard
anyone mention it before, either. So, my belief is I'm safer with these
brighter lights that turn on quicker than I am with the original
incandescents that didn't seem to catch people's attention as much.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Not sure what the minimum refresh rate I can deal
with on a CRT is, as I have pretty much exclusively
used an LCD now for quite a while and never noticed
any issues with it in the past, but I imagine that
it could be significantly lower than my threshold of
what I find distracting and annoying on 'most' LED
equipped vehicles. While at a computer, my eyes are
basically stationary while viewing a small screen (I
have no PDA to speak of). While I drive though, I do
a lot of scanning of the road, between being on deer
lookout, 'refreshing' my rearward awareness by checking
my rear view mirrors, and of course constantly monitoring
traffic all around me. For me personally, I do not
want anything on my vehicle that is going to distract
or hypnotize ANY other drivers on the road, which is
what poorly designed (even if DOT approved) LED's end
up doing. Unfortunately they are not all 100Hz and
up, in fact there are some cars that some with them
as 'stock' options and are closer to 50Hz! Again, I
am ALL FOR LED's, I just think that more research/regulations
need to be applied to them so as not to add more unnecessary
hazard to the roads, and more buyer awareness to support
it. Whether everyone notices this phenomenon or not,
it only takes one confused driver to ruin your whole
day/night.
For the doubters on this thread--does not noticing
something mean it does not exist or matter?

Paul Hanson

At 01:06 11 July 2007, Bill Daniels wrote:
Yep, they do flash so as to increase the percieved
brightness by driving the
LED to a brighter output in the 50% on cycle while
avoiding some of the
heat build up with the off cycle. But, I always thought
that was at more
than 100 Hz where the on-off flashing would not be
perceivable - at least by
the majority of the population. I can't perceive the
'dotted streaks' you
speak of.

Just curious, Paul. What was the lowest computer CRT
monitor refresh rate
you can live with? (The new CFL backlit LCD's don't
flash.)

Bill Daniels


'Paul Hanson' wrote in message
...
About the flashing. I am not referring to any mode
of load applied to the lights (like putting on your
hazzards, or using a turn signal), I am talking about
the light cluster units themselves.
Not all LED lights for vehicles are created equal.

A great deal of them do NOT light up like an incandescent
bulb. In fact, most of them I have seen do not. Most
have a little circuit board in them, which aside from
regulating voltage, dictate how many flashes per second
they have while engaged in different modes.
Yes, in the US a lot of buses/trucks/etc have LEDs,
which IS clearly a superior technology, if properly
designed. Unfortunately a great deal (not all mind
you) of them DO possess what I call the 'strobe effect',
for lack of a better term, I am harping on. This effect
happens while they fully on (constant voltage), since
they are set to flash say, oh maybe...40-200 times
per second, which appears to be on like an incandescent
at a steady glance, but not when you run your eyes
across it while it is stationary. I have spent a LOT
of time on the road, particularly at night and I can
assure you that many of the vehicles equipped with
LEDs are using a type that has this highly distractive
circuit built into them. I fully agree that LED's
are
the way to go, all I am saying is please, on behalf
of all others on the road including me, buy good ones
that either flash so quickly that it is undetectable,
or do not flash at all like an incandescent. There
are many types available, all you have to do before
buying one, is turn it on (apply the voltage), then
move your eyes across it quickly. Does it make a solid
red streak, or did it leave the imprint of a dotted
line? Flashing lights are distracting, thats all.
A
little homework goes a long way, with any purchase.
Here are a few links to other discussions about this
very same phenomenon that I now realize plagues many
more people than myself: (Granted it is a UK forum,
but it touches on the same effect, and if you want
I'm sure I can find more and from the US)

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/vi...18808&highligh
t
=#118808

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/vi...0539&postdays=
0
&postorder=asc&start=0

Glad you guys just happened to get LEDs that work
well,
and I agree, the third brake light is indeed a good
idea.

Paul Hanson



At 23:12 10 July 2007, Bumper wrote:
Eric,

I couldn't figure the 'flashing' comment either, unless
he was referring to
what sometimes happens with a non-electronic flasher
without enough
load - - e.g. if you replace your turn signal incandescent
lights with LED
units, the load won't be enough to operate the OEM
flasher. This can be
corrected by either installing a suitable electronic
flasher or by
installing a load resister in parallel with both turn
signals.

Also good is to install a 3rd brake light at the top
of the trailer fin. It
may be necessary to make a wedge or bracket so that
the LED fixture is
perpendicular to the ground (LED's used in these fixtures
have a relatively
narrow beam angle as compared to incandescent lights).
A relay is used for
the 'logic' circuit with the coil driven by one turn
signal and the NO
contact connected to the other. Both turn/brake lights
on together, then the
3rd brake light works.

Newer Cobra trailers have a bigger tail light fixture
installed semi-flush.
A shame, since it's still not good quality and the
larger hole in the
trailer means you can't use standard round truck LED
lights easily.

I used Maxxima LED fixtures on my trailer, reasonable
price and good
quality.

bumper


'Eric Greenwell' wrote in message
news:7BTki.9017$ZO4.6321@trndny05...
Paul Hanson wrote:

I don't remember (at least recently anyways) seeing
a thread about LED lights for trailers. However, I
think LED's are a great idea, BUT... I just urge anyone
buying them to look into the flash rate (they are
constantly
blinking as opposed to solidly on like incandescents)
of lights you are investigating and choose the highest
rate possible. Reason being, it is VERY annoying and
distracting to be driving at night, and to have a
set
of very bright taillights 'strobe' a dotted line across
your vision as you scan your eye across them. The
lower
the flash rate, the more exaggerated the problem is.
I am very surprised DOT has not set some kind of minimum
standards as to flash rate (as well as better guidelines
to headlight lumen maximum/spectrum range, anyone
else
hate those ultra-bright purple blue headlights?).
Remember, if it is distracting to other drivers, you
are increasing your chances of an accident as opposed
to promoting safety so please do your homework before
purchasing.

There are plenty of places selling brake/turn/running
light units using
LEDs that display exactly as the incandescent units
do (no
flashing/strobing, just on or off). In the USA, LED
lights are very
common on all sizes of trucks and buses, and none of
them flash.

"Do the usual, unusually well"--Len Niemi

I picked up a pair of LED tail lights from a dealer in Australia, I
think for $70 or 75AU. These are of course the proper ones with amber
turn signals not the 1960s-vintage, same red lighting for turn and
brake, typical of US installations and illegal elsewhere. They are
also waterproof for boat trailers, so will likely last forever. Found
them on e-bay Australia.
Only problem I found was the 100mm square lights didn't quite cover
the Cobra trailer's round tail light cutout, so a backing plate needs
to be made.
Jim