WWW II Plane

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Hallo Group,
My perhaps stupid question is :

Cockpits of many jetfighterplanes are difficult to board. On most modern
fighters you can´t just step on the wing and swing yourself in the
cockpit of your trusted Hellcat. Cockpits are now 2 or more yards above
the deck.

Now my questions: Is there a policy that Navy-planes have steps or
ladders build in them? And why do many Airforceplanes need external
Ladders. And what do the pilot do when there is no ladder available on
this airfield?

Greetings
Max

Max Richter,

Is there a policy that Navy-planes have steps or ladders build in them?

None of which I am aware. That having been said, I can't think of a current USN airframe without a built-in means of ingress/egress.

In the recent past, however, there were USN carrier-based aircraft that required externally-mounted ladders: the A-4 series and the RA-5C come immediately to mind.

And why do many Airforceplanes need external Ladders.

I was not USAF, so I can't answer.

And what do the pilot do when there is no ladder available on this airfield?

Stand by this NG for answers from former Scooter (A-4) and Vigilante (RA-5C) folks.

--
Mike Kanze

"You can't save the earth unless you're willing to make other people sacrifice."

- Dogbert, in Dilbert (6/20/2007)

"Max Richter" wrote in message ...
Hallo Group,
My perhaps stupid question is :

Cockpits of many jetfighterplanes are difficult to board. On most modern
fighters you can´t just step on the wing and swing yourself in the
cockpit of your trusted Hellcat. Cockpits are now 2 or more yards above
the deck.

Now my questions: Is there a policy that Navy-planes have steps or
ladders build in them? And why do many Airforceplanes need external
Ladders. And what do the pilot do when there is no ladder available on
this airfield?

Greetings
Max

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 20:18:11 +0200, Max Richter
wrote:

Now my questions: Is there a policy that Navy-planes have steps or
ladders build in them?

Can't speak for USN policy, but I can't think of any recent Navy
designs that didn't have some sort of fold-down/out steps.

And why do many Airforceplanes need external
Ladders.

Because we can! The USAF aircraft that I dealt with had internal steps
except for the F-105 which definitely needed a ladder for boarding
although with a bit of dexterity one could dismount without a ladder
by going over the windscreen and sliding down the nose, then supending
oneself from the pitot boom and dropping the final three feet or so to
the ground.

The F-4 had a slide out step that suspended below the cockpit and then
a kick-step or two to climb aboard when a ladder wasn't available.
Even the T-38 had a drop step and kick-step for boarding without a
ladder.

Ladders make it a bit more comfortable and stable to mount the steed
festooned with the various accoutrements of aviation.


And what do the pilot do when there is no ladder available on
this airfield?

Use the built-ins, or have a crew chief pull a truck or maintenance
cart close enough to step onto and then descend.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

In article ,
Clark wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote in
:

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 20:18:11 +0200, Max Richter
wrote:

Now my questions: Is there a policy that Navy-planes have steps or
ladders build in them?

Can't speak for USN policy, but I can't think of any recent Navy
designs that didn't have some sort of fold-down/out steps.

No ladders = less stuff to be stowed on a flight deck and less to be
blown around a flight deck. Last USN carrier aircraft I can think of
without a ladder was the A-4. You could get on it during cross
countries and such by stepping on the wing drop tank fin thence the wing
and inch up the refueling probe. That's the way we did it in training
command anyway.

Pugs

Allen Epps wrote:
In article ,
Clark wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote in
:

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 20:18:11 +0200, Max Richter
wrote:

Now my questions: Is there a policy that Navy-planes have steps or
ladders build in them?

Can't speak for USN policy, but I can't think of any recent Navy
designs that didn't have some sort of fold-down/out steps.

No ladders = less stuff to be stowed on a flight deck and less to be
blown around a flight deck. Last USN carrier aircraft I can think of
without a ladder was the A-4. You could get on it during cross
countries and such by stepping on the wing drop tank fin thence the
wing and inch up the refueling probe. That's the way we did it in
training command anyway.

Pugs


That sounds like an accident waiting to happen.



--

Cheers

Dave Kearton

That sounds like an accident waiting to happen.


That's nothing compared to the procedure that Vigie (RA-5C) crews had to follow at non-Vigie ladder equipped bases:

1. Butt on one of the horizontal stabilizers.
2. Swing legs onto horizontal stabilizer.
3. Stand up carefully, to maintain balance. (Best not attempted when still a bit W0X0F from the night before).
4. Work your way forward along the turtleback, pilot first.
5. Pilot works way around rear cockpit, enters forward cockpit, closes canopy.
6. RAN enters rear cockpit, etc.

I'm reciting this from having observed a Vigie crew do this at the East Overshoe AFB transient line while I was in Base Ops munching on a one-handed culinary delight and refiguring our DD-175. Damndest thing I saw that day.

Vigie folks, please step in and correct this if I remembered it wrong.

--
Mike Kanze

"I knew I'd been living in Berkeley too long when I saw a sign that said 'Free Firewood' and my first thought was 'Who was Firewood and what did he do?'"

- John Berger

"Dave Kearton" wrote in message ...
Allen Epps wrote:
In article ,
Clark wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote in
:

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 20:18:11 +0200, Max Richter
wrote:

Now my questions: Is there a policy that Navy-planes have steps or
ladders build in them?

Can't speak for USN policy, but I can't think of any recent Navy
designs that didn't have some sort of fold-down/out steps.

No ladders = less stuff to be stowed on a flight deck and less to be
blown around a flight deck. Last USN carrier aircraft I can think of
without a ladder was the A-4. You could get on it during cross
countries and such by stepping on the wing drop tank fin thence the
wing and inch up the refueling probe. That's the way we did it in
training command anyway.

Pugs


That sounds like an accident waiting to happen.



--

Cheers

Dave Kearton

On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 18:33:46 -0700, "Mike Kanze"
wrote:

That sounds like an accident waiting to happen.


That's nothing compared to the procedure that Vigie (RA-5C) crews had to follow at non-Vigie ladder equipped bases:

1. Butt on one of the horizontal stabilizers.
2. Swing legs onto horizontal stabilizer.
3. Stand up carefully, to maintain balance. (Best not attempted when still a bit W0X0F from the night before).
4. Work your way forward along the turtleback, pilot first.
5. Pilot works way around rear cockpit, enters forward cockpit, closes canopy.
6. RAN enters rear cockpit, etc.

I'm reciting this from having observed a Vigie crew do this at the East Overshoe AFB transient line while I was in Base Ops munching on a one-handed culinary delight and refiguring our DD-175. Damndest thing I saw that day.

Vigie folks, please step in and correct this if I remembered it wrong.


As an operator of a similarly sized single-seat, single-engine
aircraft, it reminds me of the drag chute installation process for the
F-105.

We'd carry an extra drag chute on cross-country flights stuffed into
the gun drum bay. If the base didn't have a replacement chute for us
or maintenance people qualified to repack, the aircrew was responsible
for installing the spare prior to flight.

The chute compartment was at the rear base of the vertical fin, atop
the engine tail cone. You had to muscle the chute and yourself onto
the slab, then climb up onto the tail cone, being careful not to step
on the speed-brake petals. Then stuff the chute in and close the
door--this was accomplished by climbing onto the door and jumping up
and down on it until it latched. To aid in this process there was a
hand hold slot in the rudder to stick your fingers into for balance.

Fun increased geometrically if it was rainy, snowy or cold.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 18:33:46 -0700, "Mike Kanze"
wrote:

That sounds like an accident waiting to happen.


That's nothing compared to the procedure that Vigie (RA-5C) crews had to
follow at non-Vigie ladder equipped bases:

1. Butt on one of the horizontal stabilizers.
2. Swing legs onto horizontal stabilizer.
3. Stand up carefully, to maintain balance. (Best not attempted when still
a bit W0X0F from the night before).
4. Work your way forward along the turtleback, pilot first.
5. Pilot works way around rear cockpit, enters forward cockpit, closes
canopy.
6. RAN enters rear cockpit, etc.

I'm reciting this from having observed a Vigie crew do this at the East
Overshoe AFB transient line while I was in Base Ops munching on a
one-handed culinary delight and refiguring our DD-175. Damndest thing I
saw that day.

Vigie folks, please step in and correct this if I remembered it wrong.


As an operator of a similarly sized single-seat, single-engine
aircraft, it reminds me of the drag chute installation process for the
F-105.

We'd carry an extra drag chute on cross-country flights stuffed into
the gun drum bay. If the base didn't have a replacement chute for us
or maintenance people qualified to repack, the aircrew was responsible
for installing the spare prior to flight.

The chute compartment was at the rear base of the vertical fin, atop
the engine tail cone. You had to muscle the chute and yourself onto
the slab, then climb up onto the tail cone, being careful not to step
on the speed-brake petals. Then stuff the chute in and close the
door--this was accomplished by climbing onto the door and jumping up
and down on it until it latched. To aid in this process there was a
hand hold slot in the rudder to stick your fingers into for balance.

Fun increased geometrically if it was rainy, snowy or cold.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"

F-4 was similar w/o the spare chute. A decidedly unfun task to stuff the
chute soooo ...
We tried to avoid chute-braked landings. Touchdown on the numbers at
significantly slower than optimum AOA and good ROD. Worked pretty good for
normal days. Then there was this time at Buckley, 5K altitude but on a 14K
long runway. No problem with good technique, eh? Well, a bit of a tailwind
changed that. Used 13,990' of that runway. No hot brakes!?!

R / John

On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 14:10:30 -0500, "John Carrier"
wrote:

F-4 was similar w/o the spare chute. A decidedly unfun task to stuff the
chute soooo ...
We tried to avoid chute-braked landings. Touchdown on the numbers at
significantly slower than optimum AOA and good ROD. Worked pretty good for
normal days. Then there was this time at Buckley, 5K altitude but on a 14K
long runway. No problem with good technique, eh? Well, a bit of a tailwind
changed that. Used 13,990' of that runway. No hot brakes!?!

R / John


I always remember one of the first female crew-chiefs (AKA plane
captains in USN) that we got at Torrejon. A cute girl who was
determined to do anything the big guys could.

When it came to loading the drag chute, she found it difficult to get
the necessary leverage to muscle the tail cone door down, so she got a
big wooden rolling pine--it was the perfect size to fit the vent hole
at the back of the tail cone. Stuff the rolling pin into the hole and
suddenly you've got a two foot long handle to easily slam the door.

She painted it lavender and decorated it with tiny yellow and red
flowers so that none of the big manly crew-dogs would steal it.

She could do anything the guys could and a lot of it better. She was a
damn good crew chief.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com