Burt Rutan "****ed off"

"Ed Majden" wrote in message
. ca...

"Xenia Dragon" They are fair questions - should the US government be
allowed
to continue to dominate near earth space? Is space going to be
nothing more than a scientific laboratory and military training
ground for the rest of this century? If yes, then why would the
billions on this planet want to pay the freight for those
government controlled programmes?

Xenia

Burt Rutan had some good points to make. As for U.S. government
domination, this is not entirely true. There are all kind of civilian
satellites up there these days. NASA, ESA, Russian or China launched.
This
is an expensive thing to do. I don't think others are discouraged, they
just don't have the bucks. Industry requires a return on investment or
the
stock holders get annoyed! The government has the "deep pockets" to fund
such endeavours. If they didn't do this, no one would. This goes for
most
"pure" scientific research. It costs money with unpredictable returns on
investment. In the early days, and to some extent now, most astronauts
were
"jet jocks" or test pilots. Some monkeys and dogs too. ;-)

The GAO has found that NASA has far too many astronauts and that they are
taking up engineering slots they are unqualified to fill. Additionally, GAO
found that NASA has failed to attract and retain electrical engineers,
probaly related to the cost of keeping excess astronauts. I expect NASA to
pay attention to the GAO and the Columbia accident investigation board,
while ignoring Rutan and BBC.

"Tarver Engineering"
.. I expect NASA to
pay attention to the GAO and the Columbia accident investigation board,
while ignoring Rutan and BBC.

Indeed, the government should pay close attention to the investigation
boards! Rutan, was I think, trying to point out that the Shuttle is in need
of replacement. This is "old" technology! Unfortunately, this needs
support from the public and BIG bucks! The public attention span is short!
They sit back and think the shuttle and space launches are routine and this
is "FAR" from the truth.
Ed Majden

"Ed Majden" wrote in message
. ca...

"Tarver Engineering"
. I expect NASA to
pay attention to the GAO and the Columbia accident investigation board,
while ignoring Rutan and BBC.

Indeed, the government should pay close attention to the investigation
boards! Rutan, was I think, trying to point out that the Shuttle is in
need
of replacement. This is "old" technology!

Going after NASA on having too few astronauts demonstrates a certain amount
of cognitive dissonance on Rutan's part.

Unfortunately, this needs
support from the public and BIG bucks! The public attention span is
short!

Let's see, fix the electrical grid capacity, or give NASA money to go to a
dead planet?

That should have the voters flocking to NASA's aid.

They sit back and think the shuttle and space launches are routine and
this
is "FAR" from the truth.

Wolesale management replacement may be required to break down the "culture"
described by the Columbia accident board. It is that same management and
regional political pressures that make change unlikely.

"Tarver Engineering"
Going after NASA on having too few astronauts demonstrates a certain
amount
of cognitive dissonance on Rutan's part.

I don't recall Rutan saying there were "too few" astronauts. He was
against NASA trying to stop the Russians from taking civilians into space on
a "pay-as-you-go" basis. In effect space tourism! The Russians I think
were doing this to make "bucks" to support their cash strapped program. Not
too different than NASA's unfortunate attempt to take a school teacher into
space. I don't agree with Rutan here! These limited spaces should be
reserved for "research" people, not space tourism or public promotion! This
is a serious business or should be! As for the electrical grid and NASA,
that's a choice the voter will have to make. This also needs investigation!
Are privately own utilities trying to save bucks by cutting back on grid
maintenance? A question that needs to be answered!
Ed

"Ed Majden" wrote in message
. ca...

"Tarver Engineering"
Going after NASA on having too few astronauts demonstrates a certain
amount
of cognitive dissonance on Rutan's part.

I don't recall Rutan saying there were "too few" astronauts.

From the original article:

"Going on memory and willing to be corrected, I recall Rutan
saying that NASA has trained only 105 astronaut pilots
during its 40 year stranglehold on American spaceflight.
He asked the interviewer "Doesn't that **** you off?"
Clearly Rutan is angry."

He was
against NASA trying to stop the Russians from taking civilians into space
on
a "pay-as-you-go" basis. In effect space tourism!

Rusains are comercializing space and Rutan has a a vested interest in the
same.

The Russians I think
were doing this to make "bucks" to support their cash strapped program.
Not
too different than NASA's unfortunate attempt to take a school teacher
into
space. I don't agree with Rutan here! These limited spaces should be
reserved for "research" people, not space tourism or public promotion!

In that case, you will support the effort to use an air breather for the
first 50,000 feet. That does shut Cape Canaveral, a tourist attraction.

This
is a serious business or should be! As for the electrical grid and NASA,
that's a choice the voter will have to make. This also needs
investigation!
Are privately own utilities trying to save bucks by cutting back on grid
maintenance? A question that needs to be answered!

No, New York has 950 MW sitting idle, for the Green vote. Adding
transmission capacity exports pollution, but it is not the only way to bring
the electrical grid into balance.

"Tarver Engineering"
"Going on memory and willing to be corrected, I recall Rutan
saying that NASA has trained only 105 astronaut pilots
during its 40 year stranglehold on American spaceflight.
He asked the interviewer "Doesn't that **** you off?"
Clearly Rutan is angry."

I think he was referring to the "age" of the astronauts in this case
which he claimed, the average to be sixty years old. There are only so
many spaces to fill, so the number trained is probably close to being
appropriate but young graduates should be given a chance also.

Rusains are comercializing space and Rutan has a a vested interest in the
same.

The USA also promotes the commercialization of space. Who do you think
designed and payed for your TV, communications, and radar mapping
satellites? A Canadian company in Vancouver is one of the world leaders in
the radarsat business that does agricultural and environment studies.

In that case, you will support the effort to use an air breather for the
first 50,000 feet. That does shut Cape Canaveral, a tourist attraction.

This is already being done. A Canadian satellite was resently launched
from the USA by this method. It seems to be cost effective in some cases!

No, New York has 950 MW sitting idle, for the Green vote. Adding
transmission capacity exports pollution, but it is not the only way to
bring
the electrical grid into balance.

If utilities are interested in energy conservation why is there a high
pressure mercury vapour or sodium vapour lamp installed along our streets at
four house intervals? I don't know the pricing information in the USA but
some utilities in Canada charge less for electricity as you use more energy.
Is that energy conservation????? Some say lighting stops crime, but in NYC
crime went down during the blackout. The presents of more police on the
streets had something to do with this! If lighting contolled crime,
downtown Chicago or other major cities would be the safest places in the
world. Is this the case????? Aren't we getting "off topic" again for a
military aviation newsgroup?????

Ed

"Ed Majden" wrote in message
. ..

"Tarver Engineering"
"Going on memory and willing to be corrected, I recall Rutan
saying that NASA has trained only 105 astronaut pilots
during its 40 year stranglehold on American spaceflight.
He asked the interviewer "Doesn't that **** you off?"
Clearly Rutan is angry."

I think he was referring to the "age" of the astronauts in this case
which he claimed, the average to be sixty years old. There are only so
many spaces to fill, so the number trained is probably close to being
appropriate but young graduates should be given a chance also.

GAO has reported that the number of astronauts is not supportable by the
flight schedule of NASA. Additionally, GAO found that NASA is
inapropriately filling engineering slots with astronauts.

Rusains are comercializing space and Rutan has a a vested interest in
the
same.

The USA also promotes the commercialization of space. Who do you
think
designed and payed for your TV, communications, and radar mapping
satellites? A Canadian company in Vancouver is one of the world leaders
in
the radarsat business that does agricultural and environment studies.

I think robots have to be developed to enable the experiments in LEO and no
human cargo is necessary.

In that case, you will support the effort to use an air breather for the
first 50,000 feet. That does shut Cape Canaveral, a tourist attraction.

This is already being done. A Canadian satellite was resently
launched
from the USA by this method. It seems to be cost effective in some cases!

It is not a good prospect for NASA's public relations wing. Those big
motors going off are so much more attractive than an air breather launch.

No, New York has 950 MW sitting idle, for the Green vote. Adding
transmission capacity exports pollution, but it is not the only way to
bring
the electrical grid into balance.

If utilities are interested in energy conservation why is there a high
pressure mercury vapour or sodium vapour lamp installed along our streets
at
four house intervals?

Canadian have excess capacity they sell South.

I don't know the pricing information in the USA but
some utilities in Canada charge less for electricity as you use more
energy.
Is that energy conservation?????

It was like that in the US during the 1960's.

Some say lighting stops crime, but in NYC
crime went down during the blackout. The presents of more police on the
streets had something to do with this! If lighting contolled crime,
downtown Chicago or other major cities would be the safest places in the
world. Is this the case????? Aren't we getting "off topic" again for a
military aviation newsgroup?????

The first half of this is OK, but we should quit the electricity discussion.

"Tarver Engineering"
GAO has reported that the number of astronauts is not supportable by the
flight schedule of NASA. Additionally, GAO found that NASA is
inapropriately filling engineering slots with astronauts.
I think robots have to be developed to enable the experiments in LEO and
no
human cargo is necessary.

That's been the case from the beginning! That is not only the case for
Low Earth Orbit robotics but also for Planetary exploration. Look at the
success of the Mars Pathfinder mission. Too bad they sometimes screw up and
mix calculations because of metric and imperial measure. Stupid mistakes
like that cost big bucks. Another mistake was not comparing the two primary
mirrors built for the Hubble. They selected the "bad" one for launch.
Cutting costs and cancelling testing, resulted in a lot of dollars being
wasted. Was that NASA's fault or govenment funding cutbacks??? Manned
exploration is important but not necessary in some cases. Columbus would
still be sticking notes in bottles had he not sailed west. There is a case
for both to be made.
Ed

"Ed Majden" wrote in message .ca...
"Tarver Engineering"
. I expect NASA to
pay attention to the GAO and the Columbia accident investigation board,
while ignoring Rutan and BBC.

Indeed, the government should pay close attention to the investigation
boards!

Running a space program based upon GAO findings would be like asking
your local brain surgeon to remove a tumor using a procedure planned
by your auto mechanic. As to Rutan, you were closer to the mark with
your initial comments--he is apparently clueless is he really thinks
NASA or the US government has placed a "stranglehold" on space
operations (I have to wonder if the initial poster was not waaaay off
base with his recollection of Rutan's remarks, as I would have thought
he is a bit brighter than that...).

Brooks


Rutan, was I think, trying to point out that the Shuttle is in need
of replacement. This is "old" technology! Unfortunately, this needs
support from the public and BIG bucks! The public attention span is short!
They sit back and think the shuttle and space launches are routine and this
is "FAR" from the truth.
Ed Majden

(Kevin Brooks) wrote in message . com...

Running a space program based upon GAO findings would be like asking
your local brain surgeon to remove a tumor using a procedure planned
by your auto mechanic. As to Rutan, you were closer to the mark with
your initial comments--he is apparently clueless is he really thinks
NASA or the US government has placed a "stranglehold" on space
operations (I have to wonder if the initial poster was not waaaay off
base with his recollection of Rutan's remarks, as I would have thought
he is a bit brighter than that...).

Brooks

I don't have a transcript at hand but Rutan was clearly
agitated during the segment while discussing NASA vs private
initiatives. He thinks NASA propagates a mythology about
space flight being best left to an elite corps of astronauts
arguing that much of the danger has been eliminated by automated
control systems, and that the first decades of space
exploration have been
so much safer for pilots than conventional air flight was.
He was scathing in his condemnation of NASA forcing Russia
to abandon selling seats on flights to the ISS, as it
had done with California businessman Dennis Tito.
With respect to Tito, how often have you heard him snidely
described as a "space tourist" ? Tito earned a B.S. in
astronautics and areonautics as well as an M.S. in
Engineering Science. He is also an ex-NASA employee.
If that is the calibre of "tourist" going up ... let me
carry his luggage to the pad.

I don't know that the GAO report on the Orbiter factors
in so tightly to what Rutan is saying.

I might share one more thought. My impression is that
most of the posters to this group are well educated males
between the ages of 40 - 60. If you take care of your
health you may all live to witness just ONE MORE generation of
spacecraft to replace the Shuttle orbiter, and ONE MORE
generation of "front line" combat aircraft in the US national
inventory. Burt Rutan is saying that the only guarantee
for spaceflight to become a commonplace for mankind
is simply to put more PEOPLE up, not just aged astronauts.
(Yes he did say the average age of a NASA pilot is 60 years.)
That fixation doesn't make him a crank, and it doesn't make
him un-American.

Xenia