FAA "Centers" have primary radar?

In another thread I am in a discussion on radar capability for FAA
"Centers". My recollection is that they typically have no primary radar,
thus no capability to paint weather. Someone is telling me they do.
Anybody out there have the answer. Maybe some do and some don't, and the
ones I used in the past don't.

--
Danny Deger

NASA offered me $15,000 to take down my web site. Take a look and see why.
www.dannydeger.net

"Danny Deger" wrote in
:

In another thread I am in a discussion on radar capability for FAA
"Centers". My recollection is that they typically have no primary radar,
thus no capability to paint weather. Someone is telling me they do.
Anybody out there have the answer. Maybe some do and some don't, and the
ones I used in the past don't.

Centers have responsibility for large areas of airspace. Any radar
capability they have beyond their immediate vicinity would be the
result of fused results from a number of remote sites.

IBM

"Ian MacLure" wrote in message
...
"Danny Deger" wrote in
:

In another thread I am in a discussion on radar capability for FAA
"Centers". My recollection is that they typically have no primary radar,
thus no capability to paint weather. Someone is telling me they do.
Anybody out there have the answer. Maybe some do and some don't, and the
ones I used in the past don't.

Centers have responsibility for large areas of airspace. Any radar
capability they have beyond their immediate vicinity would be the
result of fused results from a number of remote sites.

Then they must have fused results, because everytime I have worked with a
Center, they can see my transponder. The question is -- do they have
primary radar capability?

Danny Deger

Danny Deger wrote:


Then they must have fused results, because everytime I have worked with
a Center, they can see my transponder. The question is -- do they have
primary radar capability?

Danny Deger

This is not a direct answer to your question. Sorry.

When I toured Houston Center pre-911 there were Nexrad type weather
displays in one corner, at the traffic management/weather specialists
area. The individual sectors did not have this display.

I remember asking about primary versus secondary and was told there was
backup secondary radar, as well as primary capability at the sectors.

Also when on a long cross country wth an instructor (whom I will never
fly with again) we were in contact with center, trying to punch a front
line in IMC. It was either Fr Worth or Houston Center, and the
controller had some sort of weather return because my instructor was
asking for, and taking vectors through the line.

So I want to say yes to your question. But I cant prove it positively.

Dave

"Bob" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Aug 2007 15:43:29 -0500, "Danny Deger"
wrote:

In another thread I am in a discussion on radar capability for FAA
"Centers". My recollection is that they typically have no primary radar,
thus no capability to paint weather. Someone is telling me they do.
Anybody out there have the answer. Maybe some do and some don't, and the
ones I used in the past don't.

"FAA Primary En Route Long Range Radar Restructuring Program
The FAA currently uses and supports 126 primary en route radar
facilities. The FAA is chartered to provide Primary radar services to
all federal agencies requiring this data to meet their operational
missions."
http://www.faa.gov/asd/ia-or/longrangeradar.htm

Thanks for the link. I found it very useful. I think my confusion comes
from an accident where a friend of mine died because Washington Center lost
radar contact when he lost his transponder. He was out over the ocean in a
warning area. We were briefed Washington Center had no ability to skin
paint. I am starting to realize this probably had to do only with this
situation of being over the ocean in a warning area and Centers in general
have skin paint capable radars.

If anyone is interested in the details of this fatal flight, I put them in
my book, "Houston, You Have a Problem" and you can get it for free at
www.dannydeger.net

Danny Deger

--
Danny Deger

NASA offered me $15,000 to take down my web site. Take a look and see why.
www.dannydeger.net
"Dave S" wrote in message
...
Danny Deger wrote:


Then they must have fused results, because everytime I have worked with a
Center, they can see my transponder. The question is -- do they have
primary radar capability?

Danny Deger

This is not a direct answer to your question. Sorry.

When I toured Houston Center pre-911 there were Nexrad type weather
displays in one corner, at the traffic management/weather specialists
area. The individual sectors did not have this display.

I remember asking about primary versus secondary and was told there was
backup secondary radar, as well as primary capability at the sectors.

Also when on a long cross country wth an instructor (whom I will never fly
with again) we were in contact with center, trying to punch a front line
in IMC. It was either Fr Worth or Houston Center, and the controller had
some sort of weather return because my instructor was asking for, and
taking vectors through the line.

So I want to say yes to your question. But I cant prove it positively.

Dave

Thanks. This was very useful.

Danny Deger

On Aug 5, 3:43 pm, "Danny Deger" wrote:
In another thread I am in a discussion on radar capability for FAA
"Centers". My recollection is that they typically have no primary radar,
thus no capability to paint weather. Someone is telling me they do.
Anybody out there have the answer. Maybe some do and some don't, and the
ones I used in the past don't.

--
Danny Deger

NASA offered me $15,000 to take down my web site. Take a look and see why.www.dannydeger.net

Danny.

Center Radar is a L Band search APSR-4 with skin paint capability of 1
meter at I think 60 miles...at 100 it is less...

These are old radars dating back to the first go at a radar center
system. The moderinzation project for the actual radar (not the data
display) started in (if memory serves) 1989...the idea was to improve
the reciever/transmitter section and split off a feed for digital wx
data much as has been done for the ASR-9 and 11...this required a new
feed horn for the RX to allow reception of circularly polarized (good
for airplane tracking) and linear returns (good for WX)...

I know the one at the FAA HQ in OKC has been done (it is a hugh
monster) and I think that ATL, HOU and I want to say ABQ centers have
had all of their sites modernized...

But as it goes everything went over budget and by 2001 they are
thinking about not modernizing the system and just going to a
secondary (ie transponder system)...then 9/11 happened and that ended
all that discussion.

A trip to OKC is pretty good. When I was there for safety school I
took the ATC tour and part of it is that a knowledgable person takes
you "outside" and points out what all the radars (there are a lot of
them I counted over 18) do.

I had driven up for safety school (and am a amateur radio operator)
and had my portable specturm analyser...that was an eye opener.

Robert

you are asking the wrong question..
"Primary Radar" tuned to detect aircraft "skin paint" is not tuned to detect
weather.
Consider that if the Primary Radar where tuned to weather.. than a major
rain storm or thunder storm would cause radar attenuation and could not
detect the "skin paint" behind the weather.

There is a move afoot to have NEXRAD displays at the controller stations,
but those should not be used to direct an aircraft "between cells", but to
know where the less severe weather areas are to move traffic through and
avoid areas that aircraft do not like to fly through.

B

"Danny Deger" wrote in message
...
In another thread I am in a discussion on radar capability for FAA
"Centers". My recollection is that they typically have no primary radar,
thus no capability to paint weather. Someone is telling me they do.
Anybody out there have the answer. Maybe some do and some don't, and the
ones I used in the past don't.

--
Danny Deger

NASA offered me $15,000 to take down my web site. Take a look and see
why.
www.dannydeger.net

what was the altitude.. where you below the "radar horizon" for the range
from the antenna?
Was the "target aircraft" in a "blind radar area for the altitude" based on
a close in obstruction such as earth or building?

B

"Danny Deger" wrote in message
...
"Bob" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Aug 2007 15:43:29 -0500, "Danny Deger"
wrote:

In another thread I am in a discussion on radar capability for FAA
"Centers". My recollection is that they typically have no primary radar,
thus no capability to paint weather. Someone is telling me they do.
Anybody out there have the answer. Maybe some do and some don't, and the
ones I used in the past don't.

"FAA Primary En Route Long Range Radar Restructuring Program
The FAA currently uses and supports 126 primary en route radar
facilities. The FAA is chartered to provide Primary radar services to
all federal agencies requiring this data to meet their operational
missions."
http://www.faa.gov/asd/ia-or/longrangeradar.htm

Thanks for the link. I found it very useful. I think my confusion comes
from an accident where a friend of mine died because Washington Center
lost radar contact when he lost his transponder. He was out over the
ocean in a warning area. We were briefed Washington Center had no ability
to skin paint. I am starting to realize this probably had to do only with
this situation of being over the ocean in a warning area and Centers in
general have skin paint capable radars.

If anyone is interested in the details of this fatal flight, I put them in
my book, "Houston, You Have a Problem" and you can get it for free at
www.dannydeger.net

Danny Deger

On Aug 5, 3:58 pm, "Danny Deger" wrote:
"Bob" wrote in message

...

On Sun, 5 Aug 2007 15:43:29 -0500, "Danny Deger"
wrote:

In another thread I am in a discussion on radar capability for FAA
"Centers". My recollection is that they typically have no primary radar,
thus no capability to paint weather. Someone is telling me they do.
Anybody out there have the answer. Maybe some do and some don't, and the
ones I used in the past don't.

"FAA Primary En Route Long Range Radar Restructuring Program
The FAA currently uses and supports 126 primary en route radar
facilities. The FAA is chartered to provide Primary radar services to
all federal agencies requiring this data to meet their operational
missions."
http://www.faa.gov/asd/ia-or/longrangeradar.htm

Thanks for the link. I found it very useful. I think my confusion comes
from an accident where a friend of mine died because Washington Center lost
radar contact when he lost his transponder. He was out over the ocean in a
warning area. We were briefed Washington Center had no ability to skin
paint. I am starting to realize this probably had to do only with this
situation of being over the ocean in a warning area and Centers in general
have skin paint capable radars.

My understanding of FAA radar is the transponder is just used to ID
the aircraft and provide altitude information. A plane with a
defective transponder can be seen on radar, but no ID or altitude.
The transponder is pinged at 1030MHz, and responds on 1090MHz. I
believe the actually locating radar is in a different band. Note the
911 hijackers turned off the transponders, but the planes were still
tracked.

Someone mentioned secondary surveillance. This is mode-s. It is also
on 1030/1090Mhz. However, the reply from the transponder is more
detailed. It contains a unique code for each aircraft. The older
transponders simply return the squawk code that was assigned by ATC
and entered by the pilot. Some mode-s can return airspace and
location.

http://mit.edu/6.933/www/Fall2000/mode-s/
http://adsb.tc.faa.gov/





If anyone is interested in the details of this fatal flight, I put them in
my book, "Houston, You Have a Problem" and you can get it for free atwww.dannydeger.net

Danny Deger