Club Glider Hangar?

Hi All,

I'm doing some research for my local club, and one of the things I'd
like to determine is how to increase the usage of our "glass" ships
(Astir, Apis, and L-33 - yes I know the L-33 is metal). All are kept
stored in trailers. These 3 ships (all in great condition) sit in
their trailers, only seeing 20-40 hours of flying per year.

A fair number of our members are older casual pilots who don't fly too
often - so when they show up they simply drag out an L-13 or our
club's 1-34 because its metal, its rigged, and its tied down about 100
feet from the flight-line. Same thing happens with our students and
young pilots - they learn in one of these craft, so they naturally
gravitate to flying what's already rigged and on the line. Not only
is this inefficient, but its also been driving new members to go buy
their own aircraft (having slogged through training in crowded metal
gliders, and never experiencing the glass club ships).

Although some of the blame lies with our club's existing policies and
operating methods, we have quite often had people talk about how they
would fly the glass ships more if they were already rigged and
accessible - but its hard to know how much of that talk is serious.
We do have a few "T" hangars for our towplanes, as well as a small
clubhouse, but no hangar-space for gliders at this time.

So here are my questions:

Has anyone out there been part of a club that bought a hangar in the
last few years?
If so, has storing your gliders rigged in a hangar actually increased
the flying activities and/or number of flights each glider gets?
Do you store powered aircraft (towplanes) in with the gliders? If so,
has that caused any problems?
How much has the cost of the hangar impacted your fees and operations?

I am interested in hearing from folks with actual practical experience
with a club that has a hangar - especially if the hangar was a new
acquisition in the last 5 - 10 years.

Thanks a bunch in advance!!

--Noel

My personal feeling is that ease of access is a huge issue. Our club has a
K8 and K7 that is hung in a large hanger. Because people consider these
gliders to be a hassle to get down (about a 5 - 10 minute job), they are
rarely flown.

My personal feeling is that the best solution is a glider specific T-Hanger,
similar to what was built in Scotland a couple of years ago:

http://www.scottishglidingcentre.co....os_3.htm#entry

With this arrangement, every glider is easily accessible. Cost becomes the
only obstacle.

Mike Schumann

"noel.wade" wrote in message
...
Hi All,

I'm doing some research for my local club, and one of the things I'd
like to determine is how to increase the usage of our "glass" ships
(Astir, Apis, and L-33 - yes I know the L-33 is metal). All are kept
stored in trailers. These 3 ships (all in great condition) sit in
their trailers, only seeing 20-40 hours of flying per year.

A fair number of our members are older casual pilots who don't fly too
often - so when they show up they simply drag out an L-13 or our
club's 1-34 because its metal, its rigged, and its tied down about 100
feet from the flight-line. Same thing happens with our students and
young pilots - they learn in one of these craft, so they naturally
gravitate to flying what's already rigged and on the line. Not only
is this inefficient, but its also been driving new members to go buy
their own aircraft (having slogged through training in crowded metal
gliders, and never experiencing the glass club ships).

Although some of the blame lies with our club's existing policies and
operating methods, we have quite often had people talk about how they
would fly the glass ships more if they were already rigged and
accessible - but its hard to know how much of that talk is serious.
We do have a few "T" hangars for our towplanes, as well as a small
clubhouse, but no hangar-space for gliders at this time.

So here are my questions:

Has anyone out there been part of a club that bought a hangar in the
last few years?
If so, has storing your gliders rigged in a hangar actually increased
the flying activities and/or number of flights each glider gets?
Do you store powered aircraft (towplanes) in with the gliders? If so,
has that caused any problems?
How much has the cost of the hangar impacted your fees and operations?

I am interested in hearing from folks with actual practical experience
with a club that has a hangar - especially if the hangar was a new
acquisition in the last 5 - 10 years.

Thanks a bunch in advance!!

--Noel



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Jan 9, 6:51 pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
Hi All,

I'm doing some research for my local club, and one of the things I'd
like to determine is how to increase the usage of our "glass" ships
(Astir, Apis, and L-33 - yes I know the L-33 is metal). All are kept
stored in trailers. These 3 ships (all in great condition) sit in
their trailers, only seeing 20-40 hours of flying per year.

A fair number of our members are older casual pilots who don't fly too
often - so when they show up they simply drag out an L-13 or our
club's 1-34 because its metal, its rigged, and its tied down about 100
feet from the flight-line. Same thing happens with our students and
young pilots - they learn in one of these craft, so they naturally
gravitate to flying what's already rigged and on the line. Not only
is this inefficient, but its also been driving new members to go buy
their own aircraft (having slogged through training in crowded metal
gliders, and never experiencing the glass club ships).

Although some of the blame lies with our club's existing policies and
operating methods, we have quite often had people talk about how they
would fly the glass ships more if they were already rigged and
accessible - but its hard to know how much of that talk is serious.
We do have a few "T" hangars for our towplanes, as well as a small
clubhouse, but no hangar-space for gliders at this time.

So here are my questions:

Has anyone out there been part of a club that bought a hangar in the
last few years?
If so, has storing your gliders rigged in a hangar actually increased
the flying activities and/or number of flights each glider gets?
Do you store powered aircraft (towplanes) in with the gliders? If so,
has that caused any problems?
How much has the cost of the hangar impacted your fees and operations?

I am interested in hearing from folks with actual practical experience
with a club that has a hangar - especially if the hangar was a new
acquisition in the last 5 - 10 years.

Thanks a bunch in advance!!

--Noel

My first club had a small hangar, so all gliders were rigged and
derigged daily. We showed up at 8:30am and were flying by 9am and in
the pub by 8pm. Your 'legacy' members have set the club culture.
IMVHO, you need to change this, but it's not easy. Building a hangar
will have no impact.

Tell me, do you think your club is a success story? What time does
training start and end? How many new glider ratings have come from
your club in the past three years?

Frank Whiteley

On Jan 9, 6:51 pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
Hi All,

I'm doing some research for my local club, and one of the things I'd
like to determine is how to increase the usage of our "glass" ships
(Astir, Apis, and L-33 - yes I know the L-33 is metal). All are kept
stored in trailers. These 3 ships (all in great condition) sit in
their trailers, only seeing 20-40 hours of flying per year.

A fair number of our members are older casual pilots who don't fly too
often - so when they show up they simply drag out an L-13 or our
club's 1-34 because its metal, its rigged, and its tied down about 100
feet from the flight-line. Same thing happens with our students and
young pilots - they learn in one of these craft, so they naturally
gravitate to flying what's already rigged and on the line. Not only
is this inefficient, but its also been driving new members to go buy
their own aircraft (having slogged through training in crowded metal
gliders, and never experiencing the glass club ships).

Although some of the blame lies with our club's existing policies and
operating methods, we have quite often had people talk about how they
would fly the glass ships more if they were already rigged and
accessible - but its hard to know how much of that talk is serious.
We do have a few "T" hangars for our towplanes, as well as a small
clubhouse, but no hangar-space for gliders at this time.

So here are my questions:

Has anyone out there been part of a club that bought a hangar in the
last few years?
If so, has storing your gliders rigged in a hangar actually increased
the flying activities and/or number of flights each glider gets?
Do you store powered aircraft (towplanes) in with the gliders? If so,
has that caused any problems?
How much has the cost of the hangar impacted your fees and operations?

I am interested in hearing from folks with actual practical experience
with a club that has a hangar - especially if the hangar was a new
acquisition in the last 5 - 10 years.

Thanks a bunch in advance!!

--Noel

Think your club could build a hangar this way? (broadband required)

http://www.soaringchapters.org/chapters/c2006/tss_4.wmv

http://www.photoshow.com/members/Frauke/ click on TSS builds a club
house.

This looks like a success story.

Frank Whiteley

On Jan 9, 9:07 pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
Tell me, do you think your club is a success story? What time does
training start and end? How many new glider ratings have come from
your club in the past three years?

Frank Whiteley

Frank -

This is a bit off topic..... But to be honest, IMHO the culture
appeared to be rotting in many ways. Its not that it was a bad group
of people - it was just aging, insular, and
"tired" (organizationally). Before I did soaring, I was involved in
amateur auto-racing and saw this in a similar club: A small group of
people stopped bringing in new blood, and then after the same people
did all the work for 20 or 30 years, they just burned out and the
thing started coming apart at the seams...

Luckily, we've just merged two local clubs into one, and along with
some newer members (including myself), that seems to have injected
fresh life into things! We are hopeful that this will give us the
boost we need to freshen our fleets, and get more organized about
training and bringing new members in. For years, there was this
attitude that you "couldn't soar" near Seattle - that you had to drive
to the other side of the state for desert conditions in order to
really fly. But some talented and energetic pilots started proving
that long flights were possible over here, and there's been a growing
movement to do more and more flying in our area.

Right now we're evaluating our fleets, our assets (including T-hangars
and such), our training, our fees, and are trying to come up with
revisions that will make this new club (of 150+ members) more vibrant
and sustainable. We're financially sound (although our fleet is
old). The big issue is going to be the cultural changes. "Show up,
fly a little, and leave" has become the norm - and lacking much social
interaction or volunteerism beyond a small core group is holding us
back IMHO.

But we have a cadre of ~20 dedicated people who are putting lots of
hours of work into making things better. If we can start retaining
students with a more formalized training regimen, and get people to
consider the glider operation an "all day affair" where everyone
pitches in, then we'll be in a great position. Its possible, just
going to take a sustained effort.

--Noel

On Jan 9, 8:17 pm, "Mike Schumann"
wrote:
My personal feeling is that the best solution is a glider specific T-Hanger,
similar to what was built in Scotland a couple of years ago:

http://www.scottishglidingcentre.co....os_3.htm#entry

With this arrangement, every glider is easily accessible. Cost becomes the
only obstacle.

OK, that is a cool solution. I had looked at similar designs, but the
wing supports are a clever and simple deal.

Thanks!

--Noel

On Jan 10, 6:41*am, "noel.wade" wrote:
On Jan 9, 8:17 pm, "Mike Schumann"
wrote:

My personal feeling is that the best solution is a glider specific T-Hanger,
similar to what was built in Scotland a couple of years ago:

http://www.scottishglidingcentre.co....os_3.htm#entry

With this arrangement, every glider is easily accessible. *Cost becomes the
only obstacle.

OK, that is a cool solution. *I had looked at similar designs, but the
wing supports are a clever and simple deal.


That hanger works incredibly well. If the K21s had to be rigged &
derigged everyday the amount of flying they do would be less - it's so
quick & easy to get a glider out that they come out in weather when no-
one in their right mind would consider rigging, and might go back
without being flown. It's easy, no-one minds. They can also be got
out by a couple of people, and rigging a K21 seems to be a 3-person
job. The same applies to the private gliders in it. One of them is a
Bocian, whose bay cost more than the glider is worth, but again it
will come out for an evening if it's nice. Another is a Duo Discus.
That's kept in covers and putting the covers on takes almost as long
as derigging, but it can be done by one person. For people with bad
backs (or incipient bad backs) it's a huge boon. Another reason it's
good is that Portmoak is a wave and ridge-soaring site (as well as
getting thermal in summer), so there is potential soaring all year
round, but without the time spent rigging & derigging. Quite a few
gliders live pegged out in summer, but come October and they go back
in their boxes. Finally, it's drier in the hanger than in a trailer
which is good for the gliders.

That hanger works incredibly well. If the K21s had to be rigged &

One "problem" we have in building a hangar is the size of our fleet
(currently 10 gliders and 3 tow-planes). However, most of these are
metal (2 L-13s, 2 L-23s, a 1-36, and a 1-34) and so they don't
necessarily need a hangar.

But our L-33, Astir, and Apis certainly could stand to be hangared.
Also, if we decide to trim the fleet and/or have a glass trainer or
two then we could make do with a reasonable-sized hangar (and possibly
derive a lot of value from it).

The idea of building a long-enough hangar row to rent out spaces is an
intriguing one, too...

--Noel

On Jan 10, 10:43*am, "noel.wade" wrote:
That hanger works incredibly well. *If the K21s had to be rigged &

One "problem" we have in building a hangar is the size of our fleet
(currently 10 gliders and 3 tow-planes). *However, most of these are
metal (2 L-13s, 2 L-23s, a 1-36, and a 1-34) and so they don't
necessarily need a hangar.

But our L-33, Astir, and Apis certainly could stand to be hangared.
Also, if we decide to trim the fleet and/or have a glass trainer or
two then we could make do with a reasonable-sized hangar (and possibly
derive a lot of value from it).

The idea of building a long-enough hangar row to rent out spaces is an
intriguing one, too...

AFAIK over half the gliders in the SGC hanger are privately owned -
all the way down one side and a couple of bays in the other side, plus
the Walking on Air K21 is in it as is the EUGC K21. Over half the
money was private money. The deal was that in putting up money to
build people were paying x years advance rental on their bay - after
that time they will pay per year.

So look at your private fleet. How many are plastic? How many owners
really hate rigging and derigging? How many are getting too old to do
so, or have physical problems that make it difficult, or want to fly
when it's hard to find bodies to help rig/derig? And even though the
metal planes & gliders *could* live outside, are there benfits to
keeping them in a hanger, or having a hanger bay or two available?

Apparently the design can be extended later as well, but obviously the
cost per bay gets lower as more bays are built.

The problem may not be hardware. Our club has a beautiful ASW24 and
Duo Discus, along with a Blanik and ASK21, all of them hangared and
easy to take out. The 24 and duo get surprisingly little usage. Why?
Few of our members are checked out to fly them! Why not? We have
enough instructors, and they're all happy to do a checkout. But you
have to ask, read the manual, and take the time to do it, and in some
cases brush up your skills a bit. Most club members are happy to fly
the blanik solo and don't on their own take steps to move up. It
sounds like your club has a similar situation, and based on our
experience the glass gliders might not get a lot more usage even if
they were hangared. In both situations, maybe what we need is some
organized push to get people to improve their skills.

It's very interesting that your club members will buy and assemble
their own gliders, but not the club gliders. Do the club gliders have
other restrictions, like "you can only fly it for an hour" or "you
can't fly it cross country?" If so, the fact that members are willing
to assemble their own gliders suggests that removing these
restrictions is the key to getting more usage. Our club has a 1 hour
rule, but you're allowed to take the glider all afternoon IF you're
going to go cross country. That has helped (though there is still not
enough demand to learn to fly cross country)

Another idea. How about changing club policy so that the gliders get
assembled every day? Along with "gas up towplane" the first thing
clubmembers are expected to do before flying every day is "assemble
Apis", whether or not you personally want to fly it? Now the excuse is
gone.

John Cochrane