Spin to impact AOA

So many good ideas on AoA. Much thought and real considerationhas
have been expressed. Something (A-HA!) came to mind.
Visual indicators!
Back in 1901, or some where about then, I flew a 1-26 to a really
high altitude. I had left the area of recognizable land and decided to
look at the ground and figure out where I was. Before I had that good
idea, I was looking right at the sun, well above the horizon.
Looking down, all I could see was black! The land was in definate
NIGHT TIME!
I have always been a FLAT EARTH person. I have also watched the sun go
around the earth! I get up with the sun in the east and go to bed with
it setting in the west.
From umpteen thousand ft, I spotted a little (very little) strip of
light. There was where I decided they would find my body. I opened the
airbrakes and managed to find a lighted strip of asphalt at an
intersection in Nevada.
The rest of the story is interesting (to me) but has little to do
with AoA.

At my air strip, when you turn onto base leg, the ground rises, With
the horizon high, pilots tend to raise the nose to see a normal sight
picture. Airspeed slows,.. things don't look right and some push
rudder to point the nose down the runway...or at the tie-down area.

At thousands of ft in the air, the horizon looks low relative to the
instrument panel. At pattern altitude, the horizon looks higher and
may lead a pilot to raise the nose, losing airspeed in the turn onto
final. I need to make changes. What should I do? Maybe reverse the
pattern and let pilots see the lower horizon and tend to make them let
the nose down? Maybe I ought to go to bed and let things be as they
will be.
Fred.

On Jan 12, 9:52*pm, fredsez wrote:
So many good ideas on AoA. *Much thought and real considerationhas
have been expressed. Something (A-HA!) came to mind.
Visual indicators!
Back in 1901, *or some where about then, I flew a 1-26 to a really
high altitude. I had left the area of recognizable land and decided to
look at the ground and figure out where I was. Before I had that good
idea, I was looking right at the sun, well above the horizon.
Looking down, all I could see was black! The land was in definate
NIGHT TIME!
I have always been a FLAT EARTH person. I have also watched the sun go
around the earth! I get up with the sun in the east and go to bed with
it setting in the west.
From umpteen thousand ft, I spotted a little (very little) strip of
light. There was where I decided they would find my body. I opened the
airbrakes and managed to find a lighted strip of asphalt at an
intersection in Nevada.
*The rest of the story is interesting (to me) but has little to do
with AoA.

At my air strip, when you turn onto base leg, the ground rises, *With
the horizon high, pilots tend to raise the nose to see a normal sight
picture. Airspeed slows,.. things don't look right and some push
rudder to point the nose down the runway...or at the tie-down area.

At thousands of ft in the air, the horizon looks low relative to the
instrument panel. At pattern altitude, the horizon looks higher and
may lead a pilot to raise the nose, losing airspeed in the turn onto
final. I need to make changes. What should I do? Maybe reverse the
pattern and let pilots see the lower horizon and tend to make them let
the nose down? Maybe I ought to go to bed and let things be as they
will be.
Fred.

Fredsez, Maybe my great-great grand daughter can teach me how to use
my spel chucker and my granma usage before I spin in. Love you'all.

To tie Fred's comments about false horizons to the thread on mountain
flying, think about the situation when you descend into a mountain valley.
As you drop below the ridge line, you lose a useful horizon reference. If
you keep the nose on the jagged line between ridge top and sky, your nose
will get higher and higher as you continue the decent - you have to point
the nose at some indeterminate point on the sides of the valley to maintain
the desired airspeed and prevent a stall.

This is a subtitle trap that snares many 'flatland' pilots on their first
mountain trip - usually in an overloaded Cessna 172 right after takeoff.
These pilots have learned to use the familiar, reliable horizon line at
their home airports. It's always there and they have always relied heavily
on it. Take it away, and their pilot skills evaporate.

It's quite possible to fly pitch attitude with reference to the airspeed
indicator but that's a instrument rated pilot "partial panel" trick and
most pilots either aren't trained to do it or aren't good at it.

An AOA indicator solves the problem nicely.


Bill Daniels


"fredsez" wrote in message
...
So many good ideas on AoA. Much thought and real considerationhas
have been expressed. Something (A-HA!) came to mind.
Visual indicators!
Back in 1901, or some where about then, I flew a 1-26 to a really
high altitude. I had left the area of recognizable land and decided to
look at the ground and figure out where I was. Before I had that good
idea, I was looking right at the sun, well above the horizon.
Looking down, all I could see was black! The land was in definate
NIGHT TIME!
I have always been a FLAT EARTH person. I have also watched the sun go
around the earth! I get up with the sun in the east and go to bed with
it setting in the west.
From umpteen thousand ft, I spotted a little (very little) strip of
light. There was where I decided they would find my body. I opened the
airbrakes and managed to find a lighted strip of asphalt at an
intersection in Nevada.
The rest of the story is interesting (to me) but has little to do
with AoA.

At my air strip, when you turn onto base leg, the ground rises, With
the horizon high, pilots tend to raise the nose to see a normal sight
picture. Airspeed slows,.. things don't look right and some push
rudder to point the nose down the runway...or at the tie-down area.

At thousands of ft in the air, the horizon looks low relative to the
instrument panel. At pattern altitude, the horizon looks higher and
may lead a pilot to raise the nose, losing airspeed in the turn onto
final. I need to make changes. What should I do? Maybe reverse the
pattern and let pilots see the lower horizon and tend to make them let
the nose down? Maybe I ought to go to bed and let things be as they
will be.
Fred.

On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 09:05:13 -0700, "Bill Daniels"
bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:

To tie Fred's comments about false horizons to the thread on mountain
flying, think about the situation when you descend into a mountain valley.
As you drop below the ridge line, you lose a useful horizon reference. If
you keep the nose on the jagged line between ridge top and sky, your nose
will get higher and higher as you continue the decent - you have to point
the nose at some indeterminate point on the sides of the valley to maintain
the desired airspeed and prevent a stall.

This is a subtitle trap that snares many 'flatland' pilots on their first
mountain trip - usually in an overloaded Cessna 172 right after takeoff.
These pilots have learned to use the familiar, reliable horizon line at
their home airports. It's always there and they have always relied heavily
on it. Take it away, and their pilot skills evaporate.

It's quite possible to fly pitch attitude with reference to the airspeed
indicator but that's a instrument rated pilot "partial panel" trick and
most pilots either aren't trained to do it or aren't good at it.

An AOA indicator solves the problem nicely.


Long ago in my Southern Cal power-flying days, I often flew coworkers
over to Catalina for the $100 buffalo burger. That strip was built by
cutting the tops off two hills and putting the rocks in between --
basically a giant carrier deck, with steep dropoffs all around.

You had to fly your pattern in a very left-hemisphere, by the numbers,
way or you would invariably get high. You could actually get the
impression you were _below_ the runway, even though you were looking
at pavement, and that feeling would not go away until you were about
200 feet on final.

There almost always seemed to be a Cessna sitting off to the side with
its nose gear folded up...

rj

It's quite possible to fly pitch attitude with reference to the airspeed
indicator but that's a instrument rated pilot *"partial panel" trick and
most pilots either aren't trained to do it or aren't good at it.

An AOA indicator solves the problem nicely.

Only if pilots are trained to use it. Why not just train them to use
what they already have? The airspeed indicator can be very useful.

If the AOA indicator had a stall warning that might help.

You know, if you think about it, we already have an AOA indicator.
It's called "the aircraft"!

Maybe the problem is the lack of awarenss of the degradation of mental
attention under stress, so called "overload".

Matt

wrote in message
...


It's quite possible to fly pitch attitude with reference to the airspeed
indicator but that's a instrument rated pilot "partial panel" trick and
most pilots either aren't trained to do it or aren't good at it.

An AOA indicator solves the problem nicely.

Only if pilots are trained to use it. Why not just train them to use
what they already have? The airspeed indicator can be very useful.

If the AOA indicator had a stall warning that might help.

You know, if you think about it, we already have an AOA indicator.
It's called "the aircraft"!

Maybe the problem is the lack of awarenss of the degradation of mental
attention under stress, so called "overload".

Matt

Mat, training yourself to use an AOA indicator takes about 30 seconds - it's
really obvious. Training to use the ASI for pitch attitude without
reference to the visible horizon takes many hours of intensive training and
even then most pilots don't do it well.

AOA indicators are about reducing information overload, not increasing it.
An AOA indicator IS a stall warning with far greater resolution. The EASY
way to fly is with an AOA. The HARD way is to do without it.

Attempting to use aircraft attitude (deck angle) without a reliable horizon
will get you killed real fast.

Bill Daniels

On 13 Jan, 18:07, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:

Mat, training yourself to use an AOA indicator takes about 30 seconds - it's
really obvious. Training to use the ASI for pitch attitude without
reference to the visible horizon takes many hours of intensive training and
even then most pilots don't do it well.

Surely most pilots - after their first few flights - are capable of
hitting and maintaining a desired speed as shown on the ASI?

AOA indicators are about reducing information overload, not increasing it.
An AOA indicator IS a stall warning with far greater resolution. The EASY
way to fly is with an AOA. The HARD way is to do without it.

So why don't we all have them?

Ian

"Ian" wrote in message
...
On 13 Jan, 18:07, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:

Mat, training yourself to use an AOA indicator takes about 30 seconds -
it's
really obvious. Training to use the ASI for pitch attitude without
reference to the visible horizon takes many hours of intensive training
and
even then most pilots don't do it well.

Surely most pilots - after their first few flights - are capable of
hitting and maintaining a desired speed as shown on the ASI?

If you think it's easy, borrow an instrument training hood that blocks your
view of the horizon and give it a try. Only in a 2-seater with a safety
pilot, of course.

AOA indicators are about reducing information overload, not increasing
it.
An AOA indicator IS a stall warning with far greater resolution. The
EASY
way to fly is with an AOA. The HARD way is to do without it.

So why don't we all have them?

Damn good question.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels wrote:

If you think it's easy, borrow an instrument training hood that blocks your
view of the horizon and give it a try. Only in a 2-seater with a safety
pilot, of course.

That's how you do it when you are flying blind without an attitude
indicator - it is harder. Flying VFR, I can look out the window, and use
the horizon or even just the side of a mountain to select and maintain
an attitude, then check the ASI; repeat as needed to get the correct
ASI. Most pilots do this from take off until they land, subconsciously
selecting a new "horizon" as they go along and the topography changes.

All this speculation about the usefulness of AOA indicators in gliders
is an interesting way to pass the winter, but I'd like to go from the
academic to the concrete with these questions:

1. Which of the commercially available AOA indicators is most suited to
a glider?

2. Who is planning to put one in their glider?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Mat, training yourself to use an AOA indicator takes about 30 seconds - it's
really obvious. *Training to use the ASI for pitch attitude without
reference to the visible horizon takes many hours of intensive training and
even then most pilots don't do it well.

AOA indicators are about reducing information overload, not increasing it.
An AOA indicator IS a stall warning with far greater resolution. *The EASY
way to fly is with an AOA. *The HARD way is to do without it.

.

Bill Daniels

So, we are talking about pitch attitude control without reference to
the visible horizon. In that situation how do we control roll and
yaw?

By saying, "Attempting to use aircraft attitude (deck angle) without a
reliable horizon
will get you killed real fast" do you mean attempting to CONTROL
attitude, or attempting to DETERMINE aircraft attitude?
Matt