Medium performance gliders

I have read many posts about how gliders like the PW5, L33, and other
similar performance gliders are not the greatest cross country gliders
and that for the same money you can get older higher performance
gliders. My question is, if you forget about dollars per L/D, do
these type of gliders have enough performance to not cause frustration
in the beginner cross country pilot? Another question is, would the
avg pilot be satisfied with these for a few years or would most really
get the itch to trade sooner?

Thanks

I think the answer depends on how much you fly in each of the first 3
years. And on how quickly you get comfortable with getting away from
the field. And who you fly with.

You could fly low hours for 3 years and still feel challenged, but if
you have the spare time to fly a lot you might get frustrated in your
second season. And local conditions affect that, look at what fun they
have with 1-26's on the ridge!

If your buddy has a better ship, then you will not be happy as he
leaves you behind every flight.

I know one who shared/rented a PW5, had some good flights and moved
along to higher performance because he could not get far. And another
who thought an ASW19 would be great for many years... and know is
'kind of' looking because he can get left behind on occasion.

So, lots of factors. I had great fun for many years in a 1:34 ship,
but I bumped into a wall when trying to get much over 300K in my local
conditions. But I never lost a penny on resale. So it was
inexpensive.

I am not saying don't plan on a season or two of lower performance,
that will certainly make you a better pilot on weak days. But DO pick
a ship you know you can resell quickly when the bug bites! as I know
it will!

Good luck!



On Mar 8, 11:18 am, wrote:
I have read many posts about how gliders like the PW5, L33, and other
similar performance gliders are not the greatest cross country gliders
and that for the same money you can get older higher performance
gliders. My question is, if you forget about dollars per L/D, do
these type of gliders have enough performance to not cause frustration
in the beginner cross country pilot? Another question is, would the
avg pilot be satisfied with these for a few years or would most really
get the itch to trade sooner?

Thanks

wrote:
I have read many posts about how gliders like the PW5, L33, and other
similar performance gliders are not the greatest cross country gliders
and that for the same money you can get older higher performance
gliders. My question is, if you forget about dollars per L/D, do
these type of gliders have enough performance to not cause frustration
in the beginner cross country pilot? Another question is, would the
avg pilot be satisfied with these for a few years or would most really
get the itch to trade sooner?

Thanks
Oh my. Did you *mean* to start another religious war?

The one word answer to your question, "do [PW5, L33, and other similar
performance] type of gliders have enough performance to not cause
frustration in the beginner cross country pilot?" is "Yes."

A slightly longer answer is, "Yes,but...the devil is in the details."
Details such as 'who' Joe Pilot as a person is, where/terrain-over-which
s/he soars, personal goals (short term ones aren't necessarily long[er]
term ones), who Joe Pilot will become after a few seasons of seasoning.
Naysayers will be happy to cite Chapter and Verse (complete with
charts and graphs) 'proving' their view is correct *and* the only one of
any real value. Lowlifes such as 1-26 drivers (WARNING: dry humor
nearby!!!), may beg to differ.

As to your question:
would the
avg pilot be satisfied with these for a few years or would most really
get the itch to trade sooner?

that - to me - is unanswerable, so ripe as it is with imponderables,
'plicit' (e.g. 'avg pilot,' 'few years,' 'itch to trade sooner') and
implicit.

Writing as one who's followed the 1-26-'high-performance 15-meter' path
(at a time your intermediate-performance-referenced gliders didn't
exist), I never felt (and don't now feel) any of my glider time was
wasted or misdirected. I've learned valuable lessons from each ship
type flown - & flew/fly every single seater XC (that being what I most
enjoy). I learned the basics of safe XC in 1-26s, and enjoyed every
second (including the frustrating, stuck becuzza insuffient L/D ones!).

IMHO, a valid argument can be made lower/intermediate performance ships
permit/encourage/make-necessary the (relatively low-stress/cost)
accumulation of off-field assessment/landing skills, which (unarguably,
in my view) are things every wannabe XC soaring pilot needs. I've seen
a whole lot more people enter (and leave) the sport for reasons related
to insufficient XC skills (e.g. fear, accident cost [imagined and
real]), than I have enter & leave for insufficient ship performance
reasons. At the (very real) risk of erring through oversimplification,
when the hassle of retrieves grows wearisome, is as good an indicator as
any of an individual's growing off-field competency and 'readiness' for
a longer-legged ship. Sure, there's an obvious paradox/contradiction
there, but would you rather ding a lowish-dollar toy, or a
faster-landing, higher-energy, considerably more expensive toy, due to
off-field ignorance and general inexperience? Make no mistake - the
potential for 'dings' is part of transferring 'book XC knowledge' into
'actual XC knowledge.' Safe XC is a matter of identifying (ideally,
beforehand), and learning to effectively deal with stresses (not fully
comprehensible until experienced as solo PIC).

Quoting from some unremembered Greek soaring pilot: "Soaring Pilot -
know thyself!"

Any ship purchased in such light will serve you and your needs well.
Should your druthers change through experience, any such ship can be
resold for pretty much what you paid for it (so long as you've been a
good steward of it).

Have fun along the way!

Regards,
Bob - with but one fabric 1-26 'ding' to my OFL credit - W.

When I went through that phase the "medium performance" glider was the
SGS 1-34. I enjoyed the ship. If the glider had been easier to
assemble/disassemble, I'd have purchased one or a SGS 1-35.

It never really bothered me that I wasn't covering the miles others were
in their ASW-19/20, LS-whatever, or SH whatever. I was too busy
learning how to fly cross country. One of our club members has a L-33
and seems to really enjoy it. There are a couple of Russias on the
field and their owners seem to enjoy them.

More than the performance, you'll get frustrated with difficulty
handling a glider on the ground. Look for a glider with a trailer and
support equipment that makes it reasonably easy to assemble and handle
the glider. You'll appreciate it when you are disassembling in a field
after dark. Been there, done that. As have almost everyone on this
newsgroup.

Dave

wrote:
I have read many posts about how gliders like the PW5, L33, and other
similar performance gliders are not the greatest cross country gliders
and that for the same money you can get older higher performance
gliders. My question is, if you forget about dollars per L/D, do
these type of gliders have enough performance to not cause frustration
in the beginner cross country pilot? Another question is, would the
avg pilot be satisfied with these for a few years or would most really
get the itch to trade sooner?

Thanks

On Mar 8, 5:04*pm, wrote:
SNIP
And local conditions affect that, look at what fun they
have with 1-26's on the ridge!
snip

Ridge flying was great to start with, now sharing our ridge with too
many other gliders and on some days paragliders makes being somewhere
else a highly desirable thing...

That depends ! "Know thyself" is the most important thing.

Do you want to:
Keep up (even come close) to higher performance gliders ?
Fly contests ? (handicaps won't make flying a task possible on a
really weak day)
Mind landing out more ? (good retrieve crew)

Why would you want to by a low-med performance glider, even though a
used med-high performance is available for the same price ? One
design racing for the PW5 has bitten the dust. If you want one
design, get a 1-26.

I know that I would be frustrated in a PW-5 or L33, because the
conditions here in the Northeast USA often get marginal for those
gliders. You would struggle more and tend to land out more. I have
seen my friends with those gliders be frustrated with their XC
performance. You would not be able to tag along behind any of you
glider buddies and you better have a good retrieve crew.

But remember the choices are not just PW-5 or ASG-29 there is a whole
range of price/performance points. You specifically ask to ignore the
price but cheaper is the only advantage a medium performance glider
has.

Todd Smith
Grob 102 (1:36)
3S

On Mar 8, 8:18*am, wrote:
I have read many posts about how gliders like the PW5, L33, and other
similar performance gliders are not the greatest cross country gliders
and that for the same money you can get older higher performance
gliders. *My question is, if you forget about dollars per L/D, do
these type of gliders have enough performance to not cause frustration
in the beginner cross country pilot? *Another question is, would the
avg pilot be satisfied with these for a few years or would most really
get the itch to trade sooner?

Thanks

Story time........Hobbs Standards & PW-5 nats............3000' cloud
base.............everyone took a start and headed
out .................first thermal 20 moles out..............all
standard ships made it.................none of the PW-5
did........enough said?.........Dick Johnson wrote a paper a few years
back that said you need 35:1 to successfully go cross-country on a
regular basis.
I'd buy a Libelle or better,
JJ
Or, how about the DG-300 I'm finishing up right now? Completely
refinished in acrylic urethane, B-100 & B-400, Becker radio, Model 20
GPS/data logger, Winter vario, nelson oxygen, ASI, Alt, compas, Cobra
trailer.......will paint contest numbers and install your choice of
computer, if you proffer. Damage history = broken boom. $38,500.00.

PS; I owned & operated an FAA certified glider repair station prior to
retiring 10 years back.

On Mar 8, 9:18*am, wrote:
My question is, if you forget about dollars per L/D, do
these type of gliders have enough performance to not cause frustration
in the beginner cross country pilot? *Another question is, would the
avg pilot be satisfied with these for a few years or would most really
get the itch to trade sooner?

I agree whole heartedly with Bob Whalen's post. There are so many
variables within the individual as well as where they fly. I have an
L33 (the one mentioned in Dave Rolley's reply) and have thoroughly
enjoyed owning and flying it. It is my first glider (purchased Nov
2001) and with it I learned to fly (motorless) cross country. It is
still a joy to fly; even on weak days.

Now I must admit that living and flying in Region 9 has made this ship
much more viable for cross country challenges. The peak season days
here make gold badge flights very possible. I've also taken it to two
sports class regionals and been very happy with the outcomes. Each
flight was a great learning experience for me. The CD had some
challenges fitting me in with much higher performance gliders, but the
tasking was always fair and allowed all of us to get the most out of
our ships.

While many folks focus on total kilometers flown, OLC has really
allowed the shortwing crowd to have a different outlet. With the
points handicapping, this is very much like a daily sports class
event. Finishing ahead of a DuoDiscus, ASW-27 or Genesis2 sure makes
it easier to put aside any kind of L/D envy. Being able to come in
ahead of pricy glass ships has certainly helped me stay very satisfied
with my little wing, metal, fixed gear ship. But then again, that's
just me. Your results may vary.

Horst
L33

wrote:

I have read many posts about how gliders like the PW5, L33,
and other
similar performance gliders are not the greatest cross country
gliders
and that for the same money you can get older higher
performance
gliders. My question is, if you forget about dollars per L/D,
do
these type of gliders have enough performance to not cause
frustration
in the beginner cross country pilot? Another question is,
would the
avg pilot be satisfied with these for a few years or would
most really
get the itch to trade sooner?

Thanks

Was it Derek Piggot that said "Buy all the performance you can
afford (all things being equal). Higher performance will lessen
the chance for landout during x-country."?

--
Regards,
Doug


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Having done just what you are talking about - buying my first glider
and getting serious about XC and worrying about being frustrated with
my choice - I did buy a medium performance ship (DG-101G ELAN which is
factory spec'd at 39:1) and have been very happy with it. Why this
ship? It was considered good (not great) performance, easy-ish to
rig, not very expensive, one was available (an important issue), while
being fairly docile (spelled s-a-f-e-r).

After four seasons am I itching for a better ship? I would say yes
but not terribly strongly. I have flown the DG in a few contests
(sports class) and had a lot of fun. I got my silver and one leg of a
gold in it. Supership? No. Fun for an early XC pilot. YES. Having
your own personal ship (versus a club or rental ship) opens all sorts
of doors allowing you to fly when YOU want to and when the day is
good.

Now, here come the "BUTs"....

But, I work full time so my flying is limited to weekends typically.
But, if I was retired and being able to fly much more often it might
be a different matter for me. Meaning I would have a stronger desire
to move up.

Good luck. Have fun. Stay safe.

- John

PS We have two PW-5's on the field and the comments I hear from the
owners are; 1) very light weight and easy to rig 2) very light weight
and doesn't penetrate well into head winds. Can't have everything, I
suppose, unless you go carbon fiber.