What would you buy with a 50k budget?

A fellow pilot/friend and I have been knocking around the idea of
doing a 2-way partnership on an aircraft next summer. I have had my
ticket since 1998 although I have only 150 some odd hours total. My
friend has about half that. Relatively speaking we still consider
ourselves newbie "students" but have this overwhelming desire to
become the best pilots possible and that requires lots of practice.

To that end we think that the best way is to have an aircraft that is
ready on a moments notice for us. We live in northern Florida and what
is particularly difficult for us as VFR only pilots is caused by the
whims of the weather. If we rent, we don't have the flexibility to
wake up one morning, see that it's not raining or threatening to and
be able to make the decision then and there to go flying. That's a
benefit we can't get from the flight school we normally rent from
which in in our recent experience has been in the Archer III.

So we are going to be looking for a plane that will fit a 50k budget.
We know we can find a decent 150 or 152 for less than that, and have
talked about a two seater being adequate for us to gain experience and
build time. But we also have dreams of doing some cross country flying
like from JAX to the Keys or we have even dicussed how awesome it
would be to be able to fly to central Texas where we both have
relatives to visit. For that, I am thinking a 4-seater would be best,
and besides there might be some times when we want to go get that $100
burger with another friend or 2. I think we'd like to go for something
not any older than say 30 or 32 years..circa 1976 - 1978 or newer.

So we have begun our journey which will hopefully culminate next
summer with us being able to say we are aircraft owners.

But to the question as indicated in the subject line. What would you
buy if all you had was 50k and what criteria would you apply to base
that decision? I know there will be many opinions and that's fine. It
will be interesting to see what we might be able to afford with that
budget.

Thanks



Kirk Ellis
PPL-ASEL

What would you
buy if all you had was 50k and what criteria would you apply to base
that decision?


A kit.
Lou

On May 17, 5:51*am, Lou wrote:
What would you

buy if all you had was 50k and what criteria would you apply to base
that decision?

A kit.
*Lou

I will second that... No AD's. your are your own A&P so annual bills
are greatly reduced,,, and the satisfaction of flying a plane you
built is "PRICELESS "


Ben
www.haaspowerair.com

On Sat, 17 May 2008 05:09:33 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On May 17, 5:51*am, Lou wrote:
What would you

buy if all you had was 50k and what criteria would you apply to base
that decision?

A kit.
*Lou

I will second that... No AD's. your are your own A&P so annual bills
are greatly reduced,,, and the satisfaction of flying a plane you
built is "PRICELESS "


Ben
www.haaspowerair.com


I've thought about that many times, but I don't have a big enough
garage attached to the side of my house and I am not sure there is any
facility in this city to rent where I could do such work. Besides, at
55 I really don't want to have to wait a year for my financing to work
out and then spend another 2 years building before I can fly. By that
time I will be just a couple of years shy of 60 and who knows how much
time will be left for flying. Time is ticking....

Kirk Ellis wrote in message ...


Before you buy any 2-seater, you and your friend need to step on the scale
and then weigh your flight bags, and then take a hard look at useful loads.
Unless you are both svelte, you may be surprised.

You will probably find that your choices will narrow down to a Warrier or a
172. To have an honest 2 or 3 seat aircraft, you normally need to buy four
seats.

Vaughn

On Sat, 17 May 2008 09:50:14 -0500, Grumman 46U wrote:



Kirk--

Take a look at the Grummans out there. You might be able to get a
good, minimally equipped '76-'78 Cheetah for $50K or thereabouts.
You'd be getting 120KTAS @ 8.5 GPH and four seats. The whole series of
aircraft--Traveler, Cheetah, Tiger--is easy to fly, much more
responsive than a 172 or Warrior (and faster), very economical to
operate as an owner, and the visibility is fantastic.

There is also a very active owners' group that is ready and willing to
help you with ANY problem you might encounter.


Michael


I have been reading up on both the Cheetahs and the Tigers. There are
pros and cons to both but that can be said about every other aircraft.
But those 2 Grummans are definitely on our list although a nice Tiger
might run more than our budget.

Kirk Ellis wrote ...
....if all you had was 50k and what criteria would you apply
to base that decision?

You did a good job of defining your mission (short notice pleasure flights,
one or two long x-counrty trips a year where you'll park the plane for a few
days, mostly two souls on board, sometimes with room for baggage or another
pax). I'd say this is the mission definition for 95% of all recreational
pilots.

This can be met by almost any 4 seater (150-180hp), fixed pitch, fixed gear.
Your "low time" will not scare any insurance co, and your operating costs
will be managable.

Beware of "ego driven mission creep", where a little voice says you really
need a turbo to get above the weather or a gas sucking heavy hauler for that
"imaginary once in a lifetime" trip to Oshkosh with all your hanger buddies
on board.

If you are flexible on plane brand, a craft for your mission can easily be
had within an hour's flight of your homebase (northern FL?). Start telling
everyone, especially A&Ps, that your beginning your search. The number of
planes seen by IAs at annual with under 20 hours is now the norm, and most
of those owners are thinking about selling.

Remember also that the real money issue is seldom the buy-in. A $40k cash
offer with additional ($1k for pre-buy inpection and title search, $2k
insurance, $4-6k first year maint/annual) will keep you in your $50k range.
But you need to look at your "cash flow" as well. I think this is the more
important issue for most pilots and determines if the owning experience is a
happy one, or not.

Most pilots I know experience anywhere from $2k to $12k per year average
flying expenses. For most of us recreational flyers who don't shelter the
plane in a business, this comes as after tax money (expense). Figure out
what yours has been for the last 5 or 6 years. If you were renting and you
have about 150 hrs since 1998, then I'm guessing your cash flow was about
$2k-3k per year at most. Get ready for minimum out flows of $5-7k per person
per year in a partnership of two. This is at the minimum end of the cost
range, assumes you'll each fly about 50hrs per year and have no major
breakdowns or decide to do a $20k interior and paint job (see how expensive
ego can be?)

....Besides, at 55 I really don't want to have to wait a year
for my financing to work out....

Oh,...you don't have enough disposable ($25k) right now for your half of the
partnership? That is a warning sign (not a stop sign, but certainly time to
rerun the checklist).

By that time I will be just a couple of years shy of 60 and
who knows how much time will be left for flying.

You are doing the right things now to give yourself a better shot at a
"happy ownership experience". Don't go "all in" or get upside down. It's
your first plane and you can't get out as fast as you think. Looks to me to
me like you are heading in the right direction. Good hunting and good luck.

PS, do a google search in r.a.o. for a post I did a few weeks back with a
subject title:
snapshot of SEL market
It shows, IMHO, the impact on resale value of one plane over the last year.
It's a buyers market out there.

On Sat, 17 May 2008 08:25:35 -0400, Kirk Ellis wrote:

On Sat, 17 May 2008 05:09:33 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On May 17, 5:51*am, Lou wrote:
What would you

buy if all you had was 50k and what criteria would you apply to base
that decision?

A kit.
*Lou

I will second that... No AD's. your are your own A&P so annual bills
are greatly reduced,,, and the satisfaction of flying a plane you
built is "PRICELESS "


Ben
www.haaspowerair.com


I've thought about that many times, but I don't have a big enough
garage attached to the side of my house and I am not sure there is any
facility in this city to rent where I could do such work. Besides, at
55 I really don't want to have to wait a year for my financing to work
out and then spend another 2 years building before I can fly. By that
time I will be just a couple of years shy of 60 and who knows how much
time will be left for flying. Time is ticking....

Then buy one that's already built and flying. For 50k you can get a
decent rv4 or 6

This is a good time to buy, the airplane market being somewhat depressed.
Whatever you buy, you need to be sure that it is either STCd or can be STCd
for autogas. Believe what you will, the world has exactly ONE supplier for
a critical component of 100/100LL. The ethanol thing will shake itself out
as the world braces for a sharp increase in the price of dinogas. There
will be a solution. THere always has been. Necessity, as somebody noted,
is a mother.

Skyhawk or Cherokee, whichever suits your fancy. Parts are a little easier
to get for the 172; the PA28 is a little roomier. Buy the airplane in the
WINTER. Summer prices are 10-20% higher.

You need two critical things right off the crack of the bat. One is an
A&P-IA that is a mean son of a bitch but will work with you to let you do
95% of the work on the airplane. Ply him or her with beer, (wo)men,
whatever to keep him or her around. The second is a set-aside of the
purchase money for a COMPLETE set of tools that is dedicated to the airplane
and not trucked to and from the airport from home.

Have your IA go over your intended with a fine tooth comb looking for
"stuff" that will have to be done to keep the bird birdworthy. There will
always be something ... tires, a cracked flap panel, burned out landing
light, all that stuff. Set your bidding price accordingly. If it means an
airline ticket for your IA and a day's wages to send him/her to the
airplane, cheap price to pay for finding a crack in the spar that will cost
thousands to replace.

Having said that, and being partial to Cessna for several reasons, I'd find
an ancient 172 with a mid time engine and crappy paint, lousy interior, and
terrible radios. Spend half your nut on the airframe itself and put the
other half in the bank. Fly the sucker for a hundred hours or so with rips
in the seats, crackly radios, and the "laughing stock" of the airport bums
for looks. To hell with them.

If your budget can afford it, a hangar is one of the best investments you
can make. It will pay for itself in allowing you to do 95% of the work on
the airplane in a semblance of comfort.

Do the radios/instruments first. You will have your filthy shoes on the
carpet and seats while you struggle with that one last nut on the tray on
the top of the stack and if you've done the interior first, you will kick
yourself silly for tracking crap all over your fine looking upholstery job.
I'm partial to used radios for a couple of reasons, not the least of which
you will spend half or less on a used radio than a new one. Don't fall for
the "yellow tag" trap. All that stupid yellow tag tells you is that some
radio shop puke ran it through its paces on the bench and it met certain
minimum standards. Will it crap out when the engine shakes the airplane?
Who knows. And don't fall for the "working when removed" line either. No
matter who you buy it from or where it came from, buy it with an ironclad
ten day or two week no questions asked money back (except for shipping)
return guarantee. As with your IA, make friends with your radio shop. TELL
them that you are doing your own work, but are more than willing to pay shop
labor to shake, rattle, and roll your prospective radio and find out if
there is anything that isn't up to snuff and back up their labor rate with
some sort of guarantee. The BEST guarantee, if you can find a radio shop
willing to do it, is a six month guarantee that if it breaks you will pay
actual parts cost and HALF the normal labor rate for repair during the
guarantee period.

Personally? I've got a pair of KX-170Bs with the associated nav heads. Old
radios? Sure, but there is a guy in Trade-A-Plane that specializes in this
particular model. They've never crapped out, but if they do, I know where
to get them fixed.

One last word on radios...make absolutely sure that ALL the connectors come
with the radios. If the connectors come with wires cut about six to twelve
inches from the connector, you may just wish to check out the various "hot
radio" lists to make sure yours wasn't "inadvertently removed" at midnight
somewhere.

Oh, notice all that yellowed cotton fabric insulation on the wiring that is
cracking? Hmmm...surplus stores nationwide have brand new mil-spec aviation
wire for pennies on the dollar. Might just as well do the wiring while you
are doing the radios. Hint ... use some sort of clear shrink sleeving and
color code the end of each wire as you replace it. Makes troubleshooting a
whole bunch easier. Hint #2. Download an old copy of Circuitmaker and
Traxmaker and become familiar with making your own schematic diagrams.
Again, makes troubleshooting a lot easier. Hint #3. Barrier strips and
crimp terminals are your friends. Again, again, makes troubleshooting...

At the same time you are doing your radios, pull all the instruments and
send them out for overhaul. (Nobody said this was going to be cheap.) I
personally prefer the Gyro House down in Auburn CA, but then again, I have
worked with them for thirty years or so. Get advice in this ng as to folks
who have had good results from the various overhaul shops around the
country.

Now your radio stack, wiring, and instruments are top notch. Give yourself
a year's flying with them. Enjoy.

Now do the upholstery. Tear the old stuff off right down to bare metal.
Prime the bare metal. Paint it with the best rattlecan paint you can find.
Go to Airtex and look at their catalog. They make, in my opinion, some of
the best upholstery stuff in the world. Or, you can do what Jay Honeck did
and find a local upholsterer that is doing a BIG leather job and have him do
your seats from the leather scraps from his big job. You will still need
carpet, side panels, and headliner from Airtex to match your seat color(s).

Fly the airplane for a year. Enjoy.

If you need any of the glass replaced, now is the time to do it. If you
don't, drilling rivets out of a new paint job will make you cry. Don't do
the windshield yourself. It is a lousy, dirty, messy job. Have somebody
else crack the new windshield and have to replace it out of their pocket.

Want a personal N-Number? Now is the time to do it. My airplane was
factory-christened N 5151 D. In '90 it became (ham radio operators note) N
73 CQ.

Now find a good paint shop and have them do the painting including the new
N-number.

Oh, did you keep a logbook of all this stuff? I don't mean the airplane
logs. I mean your personal logs. Any time you spend on the airplane
(including research and drawing schematics on the computer) is loggable
towards your A&P. YOu need 30 months of experience (35 hour weeks, as I
recall) just to sit for the exam, and after that (except for annuals) you
can sign your own work off. What's that? 5000 hours or so? Hell, you'll
have that halfway through the upholstery. Your IA can sign off verifying
your time. This is not an absolute requirement, but the local FSDO isn't
going to run you through the crap mill if you get the signature.

And what has all this bought you? Not only pilot time, but knowing the
airplane inside out. Knowing FOR SURE that when you flip the switch, the
lights will come on. And you can't buy that experience for love nor money.

Jim

(Oh, one last thing. You DID start your engine fund when you bought the
airplane, yes? By now it is probably a couple of hundred hours past TBO and
you might want to start looking at engine parts. You DO want to do the
engine yourself, don't you? {;-)

--
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought
without accepting it."
--Aristotle


Kirk Ellis wrote in message
...


A fellow pilot/friend and I have been knocking around the idea of
doing a 2-way partnership on an aircraft next summer. I have had my
ticket since 1998 although I have only 150 some odd hours total. My
friend has about half that. Relatively speaking we still consider
ourselves newbie "students" but have this overwhelming desire to
become the best pilots possible and that requires lots of practice.

Kirk wrote:
On Sat, 17 May 2008 09:50:14 -0500, Grumman 46U wrote:



Kirk--

Take a look at the Grummans out there. You might be able to get a
good, minimally equipped '76-'78 Cheetah for $50K or thereabouts.
You'd be getting 120KTAS @ 8.5 GPH and four seats. The whole series of
aircraft--Traveler, Cheetah, Tiger--is easy to fly, much more
responsive than a 172 or Warrior (and faster), very economical to
operate as an owner, and the visibility is fantastic.

There is also a very active owners' group that is ready and willing to
help you with ANY problem you might encounter.


Michael


I have been reading up on both the Cheetahs and the Tigers. There are
pros and cons to both but that can be said about every other aircraft.
But those 2 Grummans are definitely on our list although a nice Tiger
might run more than our budget.

I own a Tiger and concur it is much more fun to fly than the Cessnas
and Pipers and the visibility is outstanding. Cruiseing at just
under 140 knots is a plus.

Right now the price of all used airplanes is depressed and really
nice Tigers with newish paint and interiors are going for an asking
price of around $65K. Not so new paint and interiors are a bit less.

Save your lunch money, up your budget a bit, and go for the Tiger.

If the $50K is a hard limit, go for the Cheetah which can be had
right now for that.

The smaller engine of the Cheetah puts the performance at about the
172 level.

I'm in a high and hot area so I really need the bigger engine, you
may not.


--
Jim Pennino

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