Parallel grass/paved runways

Dear Group,

While I am the only soaring pilot at my local field (KLUM), the
occasional glider drops in when the lift gives out. A dozen years ago
I had formed a little club, and we used the 50-ft grass overruns and
the 100-ft-wide grass margins of the runway continually, to avoid
conflicts with power traffic. That's ancient history now.

I am now on the airport commission, a good position from which to
request that we formally designate the 100 ft X 3000 ft grass area
paralleling the paved runway along its south side as a parallel runway
for recreation and training, with proper markings.

I think it would help my case if I can present a list of airports
where glider/power operations are routinely conducted on close-
together parallel runways, in case there is any foot-dragging (as
always seems to happen when change is suggested).

Please email either a response to this list, or privately to me -
drdanATwwt.net - about any such cooperative gliderport/airport, and
whether you fly there or simple know of it (in which case I'll look up
the manager).

All that's needed is the ICAO airport designator, but details are of
course welcome, especially if any FAA concerns had been expressed
regarding instrument-approach limitations.

Thanks very much.

Dan Johnson

Dan -

KAWO (Arlington, WA - about 1 hour N of Seattle, WA).

Our local club is based at this airport. 100+ members, easily 20+
active pilots. We have operations every weekend, and sometimes on
weekdays. 20 - 30 launches per day.

Our "strip" is actually 3 grass areas between the paved main runway
and the main taxiway. Each grass area is about 1800' long and has a
paved taxiway at each end running 90 degrees to the grass (these are
what connect the runway to the taxiway). We use the middle grass area
for takeoffs, and then one of the other grass areas (based on wind
direction) for landings.

KAWO is a pretty busy GA airport. Not much jet traffic, but quite a
variety of homebuilts, antiques, acrobatic planes, formation-flying RV
groups (the famous "Blackjack Squardon"), and helicopters.

Glider patterns are all to the east of the field, and powered traffic
always does patterns to the west of the field. Makes for interesting
base legs, sometimes with gliders and powered traffic nose-to-nose;
but it hasn't ever created any conflicts that I'm aware of.

Only the helicopters seem to cause problems! We've had some scary
close-calls with them (cutting into our pattern, flying across the
grass takeoff area without looking, and blowing their rotorwash all
over glider grids and assembly areas)... but the fixed-wing folks all
seem to play nice together without any issues.

Good luck,

--Noel

A quick P.S....

I realize I might have made it sound like our grass is immediately
adjacent to the runway; which would make the base-to-final a lot
closer / less-safe with both powered and glider traffic
simultaneously. Our mowed grass strip is separated from the paved
runway edge by about 150' of tall grass. So there's some horizontal
separation when aircraft are coming in on parallel final approaches.

--Noel

Dan,

Sun Valley Airport (A20), in Arizona, uses the area adjacent to its
main runway for glider ops.

~ted/n2O

On Jun 17, 6:04*pm, danlj wrote:
Dear Group,

While I am the only soaring pilot at my local field (KLUM), the
occasional glider drops in when the lift gives out. A dozen years ago
I had formed a little club, and we used the 50-ft grass overruns and
the 100-ft-wide grass margins of the runway continually, to avoid
conflicts with power traffic. That's ancient history now.

I am now on the airport commission, a good position from which to
request that we formally designate the 100 ft X 3000 ft grass area
paralleling the paved runway along its south side as a parallel runway
for recreation and training, with proper markings.

I think it would help my case if I can present a list of airports
where glider/power operations are routinely conducted on close-
together parallel runways, in case there is any foot-dragging (as
always seems to happen when change is suggested).

Please email either a response to this list, or privately to me -
drdanATwwt.net - about any such cooperative gliderport/airport, and
whether you fly there or simple know of it (in which case I'll look up
the manager).

All that's needed is the ICAO airport designator, but details are of
course welcome, especially if any FAA concerns had been expressed
regarding instrument-approach limitations.

Thanks very much.

Dan Johnson

Valley Soaring Club in Middletown NY. (06N)50 yr of safe parallel ops
on grass adjoining paved runway.
UH

On Jun 17, 6:04*pm, danlj wrote:
Dear Group,

While I am the only soaring pilot at my local field (KLUM), the
occasional glider drops in when the lift gives out. A dozen years ago
I had formed a little club, and we used the 50-ft grass overruns and
the 100-ft-wide grass margins of the runway continually, to avoid
conflicts with power traffic. That's ancient history now.

I am now on the airport commission, a good position from which to
request that we formally designate the 100 ft X 3000 ft grass area
paralleling the paved runway along its south side as a parallel runway
for recreation and training, with proper markings.

I think it would help my case if I can present a list of airports
where glider/power operations are routinely conducted on close-
together parallel runways, in case there is any foot-dragging (as
always seems to happen when change is suggested).

Please email either a response to this list, or privately to me -
drdanATwwt.net - about any such cooperative gliderport/airport, and
whether you fly there or simple know of it (in which case I'll look up
the manager).

All that's needed is the ICAO airport designator, but details are of
course welcome, especially if any FAA concerns had been expressed
regarding instrument-approach limitations.

Thanks very much.

Dan Johnson

In addition to the others, I can think of:

1N7: Blairstown airport NJ
KELM: Elmira/Corning airport NY
Dansville NY...

Come to think of it, I bet you a significant percentage of glider
operations which don't own their own field have this sort of setup...

On Jun 17, 5:04*pm, danlj wrote:
Dear Group,

While I am the only soaring pilot at my local field (KLUM), the
occasional glider drops in when the lift gives out. A dozen years ago
I had formed a little club, and we used the 50-ft grass overruns and
the 100-ft-wide grass margins of the runway continually, to avoid
conflicts with power traffic. That's ancient history now.

I am now on the airport commission, a good position from which to
request that we formally designate the 100 ft X 3000 ft grass area
paralleling the paved runway along its south side as a parallel runway
for recreation and training, with proper markings.

I think it would help my case if I can present a list of airports
where glider/power operations are routinely conducted on close-
together parallel runways, in case there is any foot-dragging (as
always seems to happen when change is suggested).

Please email either a response to this list, or privately to me -
drdanATwwt.net - about any such cooperative gliderport/airport, and
whether you fly there or simple know of it (in which case I'll look up
the manager).

All that's needed is the ICAO airport designator, but details are of
course welcome, especially if any FAA concerns had been expressed
regarding instrument-approach limitations.

Thanks very much.

Dan Johnson

Hartford Municipal Airport (HXF), Hartford, Wisconsin. Parallel grass
and asphalt (11/29) and shared grass runway (18/36). Gliders fly right
pattern, powered aircraft fly left. Lots of room for staging and
ground operations. Beautiful place to fly.

Dave

At 22:04 17 June 2008, danlj wrote:
snip
I am now on the airport commission, a good position from which to
request that we formally designate the 100 ft X 3000 ft grass area
paralleling the paved runway along its south side as a parallel runway
for recreation and training, with proper markings.
snip

If you look into the CFRs about parallel runways you will find that they
must be separated by 750ft, IIRC. This means you cannot "formally
designate" a second runway with markings, etc. at your site.

There are lots of airports where gliders operate from the grass alongside
the paved runway, but none of these are designated as separate runways.
You can continue to operate as you and the others do with a local
understanding of the procedures.

This means you have technically one runway and one approach path with the
pilot having the choice of where to touch down. If I understand parallel
runways correctly, they allow constant simultaneous approaches without
regard for the traffic on either side, and the traffic is governed by a
tower. At an airport with no tower and landing areas closer than 750(?)ft
along side, the traffic will have to sequence as for a single runway. Your
situation with the local commission might well be worsened if you pursue
trying to get a formal designation and as a result the commission looks
carefully into the regulations.

On Jun 17, 11:58 pm, Nyal Williams wrote:
At 22:04 17 June 2008, danlj wrote:
snip

If you look into the CFRs about parallel runways you will find that they
must be separated by 750ft, IIRC. This means you cannot "formally
designate" a second runway with markings, etc. at your site.

There are lots of airports where gliders operate from the grass alongside
the paved runway, but none of these are designated as separate runways.

3B3, in Sterling, Mass., home of the very active (150+ members)
Greater Boston Soaring Club and MIT Soaring Association, is set up
this way. The parallel grass strip is well maintained, but I do not
believe it is listed as a separate runway. Landing pilots sequence,
and when announcing on CTAF, we simply state "taking the grass." If
power traffic is on final, launches from the grid are definitely put
on hold

On 6/18/08 7:52 AM, in article
, "jchutch"
wrote:

On Jun 17, 11:58 pm, Nyal Williams wrote:
At 22:04 17 June 2008, danlj wrote:
snip

If you look into the CFRs about parallel runways you will find that they
must be separated by 750ft, IIRC. This means you cannot "formally
designate" a second runway with markings, etc. at your site.

There are lots of airports where gliders operate from the grass alongside
the paved runway, but none of these are designated as separate runways.

3B3, in Sterling, Mass., home of the very active (150+ members)
Greater Boston Soaring Club and MIT Soaring Association, is set up
this way. The parallel grass strip is well maintained, but I do not
believe it is listed as a separate runway. Landing pilots sequence,
and when announcing on CTAF, we simply state "taking the grass." If
power traffic is on final, launches from the grid are definitely put
on hold

I don't know if this is still the case, but Stennis International in Bay St.
Louis, MS used to have a grass glider runway alongside the main concrete
runway. That was 15 or 20 years ago, and I have no idea if there is even a
glider operation there now.