CHEAP L. A. Area Flying Club C-172

We are considering starting up a Los Angeles area flying club based on
1/10 ownership of a classic vintage 172. The club would be based on
greatly reducing the cost of flying, whether for private pilots or
students looking to reduce their training costs. Initial figures
indicate a buy-in of $3995 which includes club membership AND a 1/10
share in the 172.

I am asking for TWO things from this newsgroup post:

1) Does anyone know the web locations of newsgroups, chatrooms, or
other online resources for Los Angeles area pilots, so I can post this
in the specific area where we would be doing the club and not have to
bother people from other areas?

2) Anyone in the Los Angeles area that might be interested in a super
low-budget flying club is welcome to contact me at victorbravo (at}
sbcglibal [dot] net

This seems like as good a place as any, but then again, I'm a pilot in
the Los Angeles area, so I'm a little biased.

If you have the time and energy to organize a club, it is really a
great deal for pilots.

10 members is a bit on the large size (5 weekends per year), but
really does spread out the cost of insurance, maintenance and
incidentals so that it is affordable.

Count me as interested.

On Apr 3, 2:50*am, wrote:
We are considering starting up a Los Angeles area flying club based on
1/10 ownership of a classic vintage 172. The club would be based on
greatly reducing the cost of flying, whether for private pilots or
students looking to reduce their training costs. Initial figures
indicate a buy-in of $3995 which includes club membership AND a 1/10
share in the 172.

I am asking for TWO things from this newsgroup post:

1) Does anyone know the web locations of newsgroups, chatrooms, or
other online resources for Los Angeles area pilots, so I can post this
in the specific area where we would be doing the club and not have to
bother people from other areas?

2) Anyone in the Los Angeles area that might be interested in a super
low-budget flying club is welcome to contact me at *victorbravo (at}
sbcglibal [dot] net

Others in different parts of the country would, I am sure, be
interested in how this works out. Keep accurate accounting and share
the information, please.

Someone pointed out shareholders would get 5 weekends a year -- that
actually might not be too bad. I wonder how many of us actually do
weekenders more often than every other month. What would concern me is
if 10 pilots are sharing ownership, it's likely not many of them are
doing lots of flying, so staying current and proficient (those are NOT
the same thing) could be an issue. I hope your economic model works
in reality.

"a" wrote in message
...
On Apr 3, 2:50 am, wrote:
We are considering starting up a Los Angeles area flying club based on
1/10 ownership of a classic vintage 172. The club would be based on
greatly reducing the cost of flying, whether for private pilots or
students looking to reduce their training costs. Initial figures
indicate a buy-in of $3995 which includes club membership AND a 1/10
share in the 172.

I am asking for TWO things from this newsgroup post:

1) Does anyone know the web locations of newsgroups, chatrooms, or
other online resources for Los Angeles area pilots, so I can post this
in the specific area where we would be doing the club and not have to
bother people from other areas?

2) Anyone in the Los Angeles area that might be interested in a super
low-budget flying club is welcome to contact me at victorbravo (at}
sbcglibal [dot] net

Others in different parts of the country would, I am sure, be
interested in how this works out. Keep accurate accounting and share
the information, please.

Someone pointed out shareholders would get 5 weekends a year -- that
actually might not be too bad. I wonder how many of us actually do
weekenders more often than every other month. What would concern me is
if 10 pilots are sharing ownership, it's likely not many of them are
doing lots of flying, so staying current and proficient (those are NOT
the same thing) could be an issue. I hope your economic model works
in reality.

I've been in a similar arrangement and it's not too bad, really. I didn't
really have much trouble getting the plane when I wanted it. You can set up
the rules such that many problems can be worked out. Of those 10 people,
you will have some that won't fly much. You can include 1 hour of flying in
the monthly dues to encourage people to fly, and only allow them to "bank" a
few hours so they are either forced to either fly regularly or contribute
more money to the group.

You can also arrange the scheduling rules such that no one can capitalize
the plane. At least in the group I was in it wasn't that often that people
took the plane for an entire weekend. Also some will want to fly in the
morning and some in the evening, so it wasn't unusual to have 2-3 different
guys getting a shot at the plane on a weekend. With 10 people you will also
inevitably have a mix of retired folks and/or those who work weekends and
prefer to take the plane out during the week.

An older 172 in good shape can make the perfect club plane. They are simple
and cheap to maintain and the insurance costs are relatively low. Naturally
the insurance costs will be considerably higher than if 2-3 guys owned the
plane, but spread out over 10 it's not too bad. At the buy in rate I'm
assuming there will be no note carried on the plane which means cheaper
monthly costs.

I would suggest forming a Delaware corporation and making the plane an asset
of the corporation and registering it in that state. Instead of a share of
the plane, each person would own a share of the corporation. That might get
them out of paying some of the taxes in CA.

"Mike" nospam @ aol.com wrote in message
news
"a" wrote in message
...
On Apr 3, 2:50 am, wrote:
We are considering starting up a Los Angeles area flying club based on
1/10 ownership of a classic vintage 172. The club would be based on
greatly reducing the cost of flying, whether for private pilots or
students looking to reduce their training costs. Initial figures
indicate a buy-in of $3995 which includes club membership AND a 1/10
share in the 172.

I am asking for TWO things from this newsgroup post:

1) Does anyone know the web locations of newsgroups, chatrooms, or
other online resources for Los Angeles area pilots, so I can post this
in the specific area where we would be doing the club and not have to
bother people from other areas?

2) Anyone in the Los Angeles area that might be interested in a super
low-budget flying club is welcome to contact me at victorbravo (at}
sbcglibal [dot] net

Others in different parts of the country would, I am sure, be
interested in how this works out. Keep accurate accounting and share
the information, please.

Someone pointed out shareholders would get 5 weekends a year -- that
actually might not be too bad. I wonder how many of us actually do
weekenders more often than every other month. What would concern me is
if 10 pilots are sharing ownership, it's likely not many of them are
doing lots of flying, so staying current and proficient (those are NOT
the same thing) could be an issue. I hope your economic model works
in reality.

I've been in a similar arrangement and it's not too bad, really. I didn't
really have much trouble getting the plane when I wanted it. You can set
up the rules such that many problems can be worked out. Of those 10
people, you will have some that won't fly much. You can include 1 hour of
flying in the monthly dues to encourage people to fly, and only allow them
to "bank" a few hours so they are either forced to either fly regularly or
contribute more money to the group.

You can also arrange the scheduling rules such that no one can capitalize
the plane. At least in the group I was in it wasn't that often that
people took the plane for an entire weekend. Also some will want to fly
in the morning and some in the evening, so it wasn't unusual to have 2-3
different guys getting a shot at the plane on a weekend. With 10 people
you will also inevitably have a mix of retired folks and/or those who work
weekends and prefer to take the plane out during the week.

An older 172 in good shape can make the perfect club plane. They are
simple and cheap to maintain and the insurance costs are relatively low.
Naturally the insurance costs will be considerably higher than if 2-3 guys
owned the plane, but spread out over 10 it's not too bad. At the buy in
rate I'm assuming there will be no note carried on the plane which means
cheaper monthly costs.

I would suggest forming a Delaware corporation and making the plane an
asset of the corporation and registering it in that state. Instead of a
share of the plane, each person would own a share of the corporation.
That might get them out of paying some of the taxes in CA.
First, I have NO personal experience in flying clubs, but have known several
pilots who were members--including at least two who still each own their own
airplanes and are also members of a flying club. In each of their cases,
the club airplane has a sufficently more diverse range of mission profiles
to justify the membership--as the club has a fixed gear single with a one
peice prop and one of the owners has a sport biplane while the other
mentioned owner has a fast retractable.

Second, after listening to a number of presentations by both attorneys and
accountants, I would strongly suggest that you interview more than one of
each before deciding which form of entity should own the airplane(s) and in
what jurisdiction. There are interesting differences between LLC, LLP,
Corp, etc. As you learn a little more, you will discover that the
differences are not nearly so subtle as you might first presume. In
addition, the results of "doing it yourself" with a "kit" vs retaining an
attorney can also be quite different.

Third, I have been told, in lectures by at least two attorneys, that some of
the alledged benefits of Delaware and Nevada corporations have been sharply
eroded over the past decade. So check carefully before presuming that you
will really avoid any taxes or disclosures.

Finally, it appears to be quite common for members of a flying club to
"share a ride" so there may be more availability of the airplane than you
might at first presume; and it may also be possible to add ten more members
and an airplane to an existing flyiing club that already operates similar
equipment--which would give a statistical advantage to the scheduling for
all of the members involved.