Spitfire Controls

Anyone out there that has flown or been in the cockpit of a
Supermarine Spitfire? I am wondering about the circular control
"handle" particular to the British fighter and how it seems to me that
it would have been quite awkward or uncomfortable to use (compared to
a conventional fighter stick) especially in a dogfighting situation
(i.e. when manuvering and firing guns at the same time). Due to the
placement of the triggers, the pilot would apparently need to grip the
handle with his right hand at the top of the circle (at the 12 o'clock
position) and fire using his thumb. I would think this would get
tiring on the wrist and perhaps make precision aiming difficult. So
what's it really like? I am unable to tell exaclty from pictures, but
are there seperate triggers to fire the cannons only, the machine guns
only, and both the cannons and MGs at the same time?

Also, is it true that the prop pitch/rpm control was automatic on the
Spit, so the pilot did not have to worry about it during a dogfight
unlike most other allied prop-fighters? I believe the German fighters
(109 & 190) also had automatic control of this function. I've only
flown a couple fixed-pitch propellor Cessna's in my life, but I'd
imagine having to simultaneously manage both the engine throttle and
propellor pitch/rpm during a dogfight would be somewhat of a heavy
workload for the pilot, so in this respect I gather the Spitfire would
have been easier to control than most other prop-fighters.

It is very easy to fly, for me even more comfortable than a stick. I can't say
about in combat, but I have flown in Tiger Moth, Harvard Mk.II and Spitfire TR
IX, and all had circle control sticks.
Matt Gunsch,
A&P,IA,Private Pilot
Riding member of the
2003 world champion drill team
Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
GWRRA,NRA,GOA

In article , N329DF
writes
It is very easy to fly, for me even more comfortable than a stick. I can't say
about in combat, but I have flown in Tiger Moth, Harvard Mk.II and Spitfire TR
IX,

Nice!

and all had circle control sticks.
Matt Gunsch,
A&P,IA,Private Pilot
Riding member of the
2003 world champion drill team
Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
GWRRA,NRA,GOA


At one point, RAF fighter pilots were advised to keep both hands on the
control column while firing - a spade handle made this easy, as was
applying a lot of control force when necessary. Plus it was
ambidextrous (did I spell that ok?) and easy to swap hands quickly
without having to overlap fingers (and trapping glove leather; very
annoying...). It also made it very easy to operate a stick-mounted
brake handle as this could be mounted to pivot side-to-side rather than
front-to-back - very natural to the fingers.

All in all, I wonder why we stopped using them - didn't look flash
enough for the export market I suppose...

By way of comparison I have an early Harrier control column handle. It
is ergonomic hell - hard to reach some controls and difficult to use
without pressing things you don't want to press.

On a trivial point, I have a 30 year old US-made screwdriver which has a
spherical handle and can thus be gripped with the whole hand - it is a
dream to use compared to the straight and/or or pistol-grip types - you
can really apply torque and pressure in comfort. Suspect the spade
handle shared some of these ergonomic characteristics.

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

right hand at the top of the circle (at the 12 o'clock
position) and fire using his thumb. I would think this would get
tiring on the wrist

I don't think Dowding expected his pilots to survive long enough to
sue him for carpal tunnel syndrome

As to the main question, it's a good one but I can't help. I can't
imagine a fighter without a stick. As a matter of fact, I don't
particularly like using a wheel on any aircraft, especially when
taxiiing.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

On a trivial point, I have a 30 year old US-made screwdriver which has a
spherical handle and can thus be gripped with the whole hand - it is a
dream to use compared to the straight and/or or pistol-grip types -

I inherited one of these from my father, though spherical is not how I
would describe the handle. More an elongated oval, made of wood, with
a metal top to defend it from the inevitable carpenter who would use
it as a chisel.

It was older than 30 years, however. My father bought his tools in the
late 1930s / early 1940s. My son-in-law still uses some of them.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

N-6 twisted the electrons to say:
I am unable to tell exaclty from pictures, but are there seperate
triggers to fire the cannons only, the machine guns only, and both the
cannons and MGs at the same time?

Early spitfires had machine guns only, and had a round button on the
stick. Later on when they went to a mixed machine gun/cannon armament[1]
they fitted a rectangular button. If pressed in the centre it fired both
types of gun, if pressed at the top it fired one sort and if pressed at
the bottom it fired the other (can't remember which way round tho!).

Later on they went cannon-only and I suspose went back to the round
buttons?

[1] That's the 4x 303 and 2x 20mm combination. There where some high
altitude conversions done with 2x .50 and 2x 20mm, and I don't know
what arrangements they had ...
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...

N329DF wrote:
It is very easy to fly, for me even more comfortable than a stick. I can't say
about in combat, but I have flown in Tiger Moth, Harvard Mk.II and Spitfire TR
IX, and all had circle control sticks.
Matt Gunsch,
A&P,IA,Private Pilot
Riding member of the
2003 world champion drill team
Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
GWRRA,NRA,GOA


As an addendum to N-6's original question..............

Did the stick move from side-to-side - or was it just the spade grip
that moved for aileron control ??

ISTR seeing pics of the stick in the central position with just the
spade displaced to one side.

I also assume the the whole spade/stick moved for-and-aft for elevator
control ??

Ken Duffey

btw, I have often read that japanese pilots were unhappy with the MG/cannon
(A6M, J2M) firing with different ballistic behaviour, but never heard about
Spit pilots complaints except about the early Hispano jamming and recoil
shake.
Any hints ?

Yann

I am unable to tell exaclty from pictures, but are there seperate
triggers to fire the cannons only, the machine guns only, and both the
cannons and MGs at the same time?

Early spitfires had machine guns only, and had a round button on the
stick. Later on when they went to a mixed machine gun/cannon armament[1]
they fitted a rectangular button. If pressed in the centre it fired both
types of gun, if pressed at the top it fired one sort and if pressed at
the bottom it fired the other (can't remember which way round tho!).

Later on they went cannon-only and I suspose went back to the round
buttons?

[1] That's the 4x 303 and 2x 20mm combination. There where some high
altitude conversions done with 2x .50 and 2x 20mm, and I don't know
what arrangements they had ...
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...

I laughed out loud at your decription of the Harrier stick. It took a few
minutes for me to figure out how to hold the bloomin' thing when I first saw
it. Over time I came to love flying the jet even with all its British
peculiarities (among the others -- pushbuttons for "undercarriage" extension
and retraction).

I too wondered about the circle thing watching "B.O.B." the other night.
Seems its just something one got used to over time.

"Dave Eadsforth" wrote in message
...
In article , N329DF
writes
It is very easy to fly, for me even more comfortable than a stick. I
can't say
about in combat, but I have flown in Tiger Moth, Harvard Mk.II and
Spitfire TR
IX,

Nice!

and all had circle control sticks.
Matt Gunsch,
A&P,IA,Private Pilot
Riding member of the
2003 world champion drill team
Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
GWRRA,NRA,GOA


At one point, RAF fighter pilots were advised to keep both hands on the
control column while firing - a spade handle made this easy, as was
applying a lot of control force when necessary. Plus it was
ambidextrous (did I spell that ok?) and easy to swap hands quickly
without having to overlap fingers (and trapping glove leather; very
annoying...). It also made it very easy to operate a stick-mounted
brake handle as this could be mounted to pivot side-to-side rather than
front-to-back - very natural to the fingers.

All in all, I wonder why we stopped using them - didn't look flash
enough for the export market I suppose...

By way of comparison I have an early Harrier control column handle. It
is ergonomic hell - hard to reach some controls and difficult to use
without pressing things you don't want to press.

On a trivial point, I have a 30 year old US-made screwdriver which has a
spherical handle and can thus be gripped with the whole hand - it is a
dream to use compared to the straight and/or or pistol-grip types - you
can really apply torque and pressure in comfort. Suspect the spade
handle shared some of these ergonomic characteristics.

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

N-6 wrote:

Anyone out there that has flown or been in the cockpit of a
Supermarine Spitfire? I am wondering about the circular control
"handle" particular to the British fighter and how it seems to me that
it would have been quite awkward or uncomfortable to use (compared to
a conventional fighter stick) especially in a dogfighting situation
(i.e. when manuvering and firing guns at the same time). Due to the
placement of the triggers, the pilot would apparently need to grip the
handle with his right hand at the top of the circle (at the 12 o'clock
position) and fire using his thumb. I would think this would get
tiring on the wrist and perhaps make precision aiming difficult. So
what's it really like? I am unable to tell exaclty from pictures, but
are there seperate triggers to fire the cannons only, the machine guns
only, and both the cannons and MGs at the same time?

Already answered by someone else.

Also, is it true that the prop pitch/rpm control was automatic on the
Spit, so the pilot did not have to worry about it during a dogfight
unlike most other allied prop-fighters? I believe the German fighters
(109 & 190) also had automatic control of this function. I've only
flown a couple fixed-pitch propellor Cessna's in my life, but I'd
imagine having to simultaneously manage both the engine throttle and
propellor pitch/rpm during a dogfight would be somewhat of a heavy
workload for the pilot, so in this respect I gather the Spitfire would
have been easier to control than most other prop-fighters.

No, prop/rpm was manual, although the Spit progressed from a wooden
fixed-pitch prop to a metal two-pitch prop to a constant-speed prop in
slightly over a year. AFAIK, there was nothing like the FW-190's
Kommandogerat (IIRR that's what it was called). As a practical matter,
though, the workload in a dogfight was minimal -- you put everything
(mixture/prop/ throttle) full forward and left it there. It was how
quickly you could change from cruise settings to combat settings in a
hurry where the single power lever had the advantage.

Guy