Powerflarm's unknown effect on the first contests in US

I was wondering how the introduction of powerflarm will effect US
contests, especially Early in the year. Usually changes are made
gradually, and introduced into in regionals a year before nationals.
Not so with powerflarm. It is going to be allowed unrestricted for
nationals from the start.

From what I understand the first powerflarm units are supposed to
arrive in April. I know new products don't always ship as scheduled.
[powerflarm is not as complex as a Dreamliner but still]. Even if
they do ship on schedule there will just be a matter of weeks or days
for pilots to get them installed and get familiar with their
operation.

So some pilots may have them, other's won't especially early in the
year.
The Sports Class nationals are going to be in early May for example.
This seems like a great unknown as to how powerflarm will effect the
contest. It seems that formal & informal team flying could give a
huge advantage to any group of 2+ pilots that choose to cooperate,
maybe for a few minutes, maybe the entire contest.

Without stealth mode won't all powerflarm users have an inherent
advantage in remote sensing of thermals and tracking other pilots
making team flying much simpler/inherent?

Seems like this will have to skew the results and tactics, almost like
having two classes [with & without powerflarm]. At what point is it
unsportsman-like per the current rules, and who decides on what basis
when it appears that a team has formed?

There seem to be a lot of "known-unknowns" and "unknown-unknowns"
regarding the consequences and unintended consequences of the
introduction.

I am a big fan of the Zaon MXR - I've flown several seasons with it
and look forward to the powerflarm for expanding on it's
capabilities.
Just seems like we could be setting ourselves up for a whole contest
season of chaos and possible accusations of unsportsman-like tactics.

I'm done rambling now, any thoughts?
Chris

Hi Chris,

All I can say is that all the concerns you mention came and went in Europe
and Australia and New Zealand. They all love FLARM now. OK "all" may be a
bit strong, but a huge percentage of pilots seem to love it - so much so
that they would never fly in a contest without it.

Time will tell how it goes in the USA. I suspect that a great majority of
pilots will love it.

I can't wait to fly with it. After flying in the Sport Class Nationals last
summer in Parowan, I made a decision that I never wanted to fly in a contest
again until everyone in the contest (or nearly so) had FLARM or something
like it.

Paul Remde

"chris" wrote in message
...
I was wondering how the introduction of powerflarm will effect US
contests, especially Early in the year. Usually changes are made
gradually, and introduced into in regionals a year before nationals.
Not so with powerflarm. It is going to be allowed unrestricted for
nationals from the start.

From what I understand the first powerflarm units are supposed to
arrive in April. I know new products don't always ship as scheduled.
[powerflarm is not as complex as a Dreamliner but still]. Even if
they do ship on schedule there will just be a matter of weeks or days
for pilots to get them installed and get familiar with their
operation.

So some pilots may have them, other's won't especially early in the
year.
The Sports Class nationals are going to be in early May for example.
This seems like a great unknown as to how powerflarm will effect the
contest. It seems that formal & informal team flying could give a
huge advantage to any group of 2+ pilots that choose to cooperate,
maybe for a few minutes, maybe the entire contest.

Without stealth mode won't all powerflarm users have an inherent
advantage in remote sensing of thermals and tracking other pilots
making team flying much simpler/inherent?

Seems like this will have to skew the results and tactics, almost like
having two classes [with & without powerflarm]. At what point is it
unsportsman-like per the current rules, and who decides on what basis
when it appears that a team has formed?

There seem to be a lot of "known-unknowns" and "unknown-unknowns"
regarding the consequences and unintended consequences of the
introduction.

I am a big fan of the Zaon MXR - I've flown several seasons with it
and look forward to the powerflarm for expanding on it's
capabilities.
Just seems like we could be setting ourselves up for a whole contest
season of chaos and possible accusations of unsportsman-like tactics.

I'm done rambling now, any thoughts?
Chris

On Jan 8, 5:59*am, "Paul Remde" wrote:
Hi Chris,

All I can say is that all the concerns you mention came and went in Europe
and Australia and New Zealand. *They all love FLARM now. *OK "all" may be a
bit strong, but a huge percentage of pilots seem to love it - so much so
that they would never fly in a contest without it.

Time will tell how it goes in the USA. *I suspect that a great majority of
pilots will love it.

I can't wait to fly with it. *After flying in the Sport Class Nationals last
summer in Parowan, I made a decision that I never wanted to fly in a contest
again until everyone in the contest (or nearly so) had FLARM or something
like it.

Paul Remde

"chris" wrote in message

...



I was wondering how the introduction of powerflarm will effect US
contests, especially Early in the year. *Usually changes are made
gradually, and introduced into in regionals a year before nationals.
Not so with powerflarm. *It is going to be allowed unrestricted for
nationals from the start.

From what I understand the first powerflarm units are supposed to
arrive in April. *I know new products don't always ship as scheduled.
[powerflarm is not as complex as a Dreamliner but still]. *Even if
they do ship on schedule there will just be a matter of weeks or days
for pilots to get them installed and get familiar with their
operation.

So some pilots may have them, other's won't especially early in the
year.
The Sports Class nationals are going to be in early May for example.
This seems like a great unknown as to how powerflarm will effect the
contest. *It seems that formal & informal team flying could give a
huge advantage to any group of 2+ pilots that choose to cooperate,
maybe for a few minutes, maybe the entire contest.

Without stealth mode won't all powerflarm users have an inherent
advantage in remote sensing of thermals and tracking other pilots
making team flying much simpler/inherent?

Seems like this will have to skew the results and tactics, almost like
having two classes [with & without powerflarm]. *At what point is it
unsportsman-like per the current rules, and who decides on what basis
when it appears that a team has formed?

There seem to be a lot of "known-unknowns" and "unknown-unknowns"
regarding the consequences and unintended consequences of the
introduction.

I am a big fan of the Zaon MXR - I've flown several seasons with it
and look forward to the powerflarm for expanding on it's
capabilities.
Just seems like we could be setting ourselves up for a whole contest
season of chaos and possible accusations of unsportsman-like tactics.

I'm done rambling now, any thoughts?
Chris

Of course, contest organizers can always specify Stealth Mode.
However, if this results in even a slightly increased risk of
collision because of hidden information on the position of nearby
gliders, they may best be advised to leave them in normal mode. (I,
for one, will prohibit stealth mode in any event for which I am
responsible).

I think the new technology will be great - not only do we have a
fantastic anti-collision device, we now have a remote thermal
detector!

Mike

On 1/7/2011 9:19 PM, Mike the Strike wrote:


Of course, contest organizers can always specify Stealth Mode.
However, if this results in even a slightly increased risk of
collision because of hidden information on the position of nearby
gliders, they may best be advised to leave them in normal mode. (I,
for one, will prohibit stealth mode in any event for which I am
responsible).

I think the new technology will be great - not only do we have a
fantastic anti-collision device, we now have a remote thermal
detector!

Isn't odd to worry about stealth mode when it's not mandatory to carry a
PowerFlarm, or what am I missing?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On Jan 7, 10:48*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/7/2011 9:19 PM, Mike the Strike wrote:



Of course, contest organizers can always specify Stealth Mode.
However, if this results in even a slightly increased risk of
collision because of hidden information on the position of nearby
gliders, they may best be advised to leave them in normal mode. *(I,
for one, will prohibit stealth mode in any event for which I am
responsible).

I think the new technology will be great - not only do we have a
fantastic anti-collision device, we now have a remote thermal
detector!

Isn't odd to worry about stealth mode when it's not mandatory to carry a
PowerFlarm, or what am I missing?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

I think the concern is that with Stealth Mode off pilots with
PowerFlarms will have an advantage by being able to see climb rates
for gliders up to a couple of miles away, whereas pilots without
PowerFlarm will have to find their thermals the old fashioned way -
leeching. ;-)

It remains to be seen how effective a tool it will turn out to be -
and whether pilots will react negatively if it does turn out to be
useful.

9B

There should be a concern about "unintended consequences."

The implied requirement of having FLARM may cause a number of pilots
(especially senior pilots) to stop flying contests because they only
plan to actively fly in competitions for a few more years.

They have to decide if spending the money for a FLARM device at this
late stage of their flying career is really worth it.

Having loaner FLARM units will help in this regard, and people like
myself will be willing to offer their units for competitions they are
not going to fly in, but some people will not take advantage of a
loaner program.

There certainly will be a discussion about this subject at the
upcoming "Seniors" contest, and the special seniors contest rules
committee will have this on the agenda.

Tom Knauff

On Jan 7, 10:41*pm, chris wrote:
I was wondering how the introduction of powerflarm will effect US
contests, especially Early in the year. *Usually changes are made
gradually, and introduced into in regionals a year before nationals.
Not so with powerflarm. *It is going to be allowed unrestricted for
nationals from the start.

From what I understand the first powerflarm units are supposed to
arrive in April. *I know new products don't always ship as scheduled.
[powerflarm is not as complex as a Dreamliner but still]. *Even if
they do ship on schedule there will just be a matter of weeks or days
for pilots to get them installed and get familiar with their
operation.

So some pilots may have them, other's won't especially early in the
year.
The Sports Class nationals are going to be in early May for example.
This seems like a great unknown as to how powerflarm will effect the
contest. *It seems that formal & informal team flying could give a
huge advantage to any group of 2+ pilots that choose to cooperate,
maybe for a few minutes, maybe the entire contest.

Without stealth mode won't all powerflarm users have an inherent
advantage in remote sensing of thermals and tracking other pilots
making team flying much simpler/inherent?

Seems like this will have to skew the results and tactics, almost like
having two classes [with & without powerflarm]. *At what point is it
unsportsman-like per the current rules, and who decides on what basis
when it appears that a team has formed?

There seem to be a lot of "known-unknowns" and "unknown-unknowns"
regarding the consequences and unintended consequences of the
introduction.

I am a big fan of the Zaon MXR - I've flown several seasons with it
and look forward to the powerflarm for expanding on it's
capabilities.
Just seems like we could be setting ourselves up for a whole contest
season of chaos and possible accusations of unsportsman-like tactics.

I'm done rambling now, any thoughts?
Chris

Careful reading of 2011 rules changes would note that the RC has
reserved the option to limit information available from Flarm devices.
A complication is that currently there is no practical way to require
Stealth mode that can be enforced without a Flarm flight log being
turned in every day. Risk is- have a power failure, possibly lose your
flight. There is conversation with Flarm folks over this , and
possible solutions, but first they need to get the product out.
There are quite a number of pilots that are very concerned about the
sporting implications of information that could be available from
PowerFlarm. PowerFlarm will be more capable than Flarm units in use in
Europe.
These concerns will not be ignored. There are some of us that do not
want to see the introduction of a leeching tool.
That said, the RC is strongly behind the implementation of PowerFlarm
as an anticollision device and recognizes that there may be a risk of
some effects this year that we might not want to have long term.
This will be a topic of much discussion and the 2011 pilot poll will
deal extensively with this topic. By then we will have some practical
experience to base judgements on.
UH RC chair speaking as an individual.

On Jan 7, 10:19*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:
On Jan 8, 5:59*am, "Paul Remde" wrote:



Hi Chris,

All I can say is that all the concerns you mention came and went in Europe
and Australia and New Zealand. *They all love FLARM now. *OK "all" may be a
bit strong, but a huge percentage of pilots seem to love it - so much so
that they would never fly in a contest without it.

Time will tell how it goes in the USA. *I suspect that a great majority of
pilots will love it.

I can't wait to fly with it. *After flying in the Sport Class Nationals last
summer in Parowan, I made a decision that I never wanted to fly in a contest
again until everyone in the contest (or nearly so) had FLARM or something
like it.

Paul Remde

"chris" wrote in message

....

I was wondering how the introduction of powerflarm will effect US
contests, especially Early in the year. *Usually changes are made
gradually, and introduced into in regionals a year before nationals.
Not so with powerflarm. *It is going to be allowed unrestricted for
nationals from the start.

From what I understand the first powerflarm units are supposed to
arrive in April. *I know new products don't always ship as scheduled.
[powerflarm is not as complex as a Dreamliner but still]. *Even if
they do ship on schedule there will just be a matter of weeks or days
for pilots to get them installed and get familiar with their
operation.

So some pilots may have them, other's won't especially early in the
year.
The Sports Class nationals are going to be in early May for example.
This seems like a great unknown as to how powerflarm will effect the
contest. *It seems that formal & informal team flying could give a
huge advantage to any group of 2+ pilots that choose to cooperate,
maybe for a few minutes, maybe the entire contest.

Without stealth mode won't all powerflarm users have an inherent
advantage in remote sensing of thermals and tracking other pilots
making team flying much simpler/inherent?

Seems like this will have to skew the results and tactics, almost like
having two classes [with & without powerflarm]. *At what point is it
unsportsman-like per the current rules, and who decides on what basis
when it appears that a team has formed?

There seem to be a lot of "known-unknowns" and "unknown-unknowns"
regarding the consequences and unintended consequences of the
introduction.

I am a big fan of the Zaon MXR - I've flown several seasons with it
and look forward to the powerflarm for expanding on it's
capabilities.
Just seems like we could be setting ourselves up for a whole contest
season of chaos and possible accusations of unsportsman-like tactics.

I'm done rambling now, any thoughts?
Chris

Of course, contest organizers can always specify Stealth Mode.
However, if this results in even a slightly increased risk of
collision because of hidden information on the position of nearby
gliders, they may best be advised to leave them in normal mode. *(I,
for one, will prohibit stealth mode in any event for which I am
responsible).

I think the new technology will be great - not only do we have a
fantastic anti-collision device, we now have a remote thermal
detector!

Mike

A post to UK RAS included:

"In 2010 the BGA competitions committee introduced a rule to restrict
the
use of in cockpit display of fellow competitors situational
information,
the wording is as follows...

EXTERNAL AIDS

All data transmission between competitors or between them and the
ground
is prohibited, except as required by the organisers, or for safety
purposes or for anti-collision warning.
Flarm devices shall be set to "Stealth" mode or equivalent setting
(known as Privacy Mode in some LX Navigation products) for the
duration of
the competition. Other types of devices that are able to receive and
decode
Flarm or other positional data radio transmissions without respecting
Flarm
Stealth data limiting protocol must not be used or carried in the
glider

Should we take the potential change seriously and should the IGC be
considering a similar inclusion into Annex A? "

I actually looking forward to seeing other competitors climb rates.
I'm sure however that there will be a lot of gamesmanship that may
reduce the collision avoidance potential. If a pilot finds 10kts on a
4 kt day do you think he will want to advertise that to anyone else?
I suspect the probability of a momentary disruption in FLARM service
would be quite high. The required complexity of any enforcement rule
is one of the reasons I was so strongly opposed to MIRA.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

Andy (GY)

I for one fear a disaster in the making and feel Flarm should be
banned from contest to allow a period of familarization. It is my
belief that Pilots + New Toys X unreal expectations + (venders x $$$)
divided by NPilots(pilots who are looking out the #!%#ing cockpit) =
****ty day at Black Rock (an old Spencer Tracy movie).
But hey, this is the opinion of a 33,000 ++ hour electrojet captain
who has seen more than his share of knuckhead pilots doing stupid
sh_t.
And now we have non-Flarmers being declared automatic leachers and
Charlie Spratt wanna-bees determining how he's going to run a
contest.
Careful.... Careful.....
Get a senior instructor (UH) who is not emotional (UH). Since this is
where we are heading, make him (UH) supreme guru who will create a
blending process to reduce the risk of Techno-Crashes. A phasing in
plan if you will. He's a sucker for extra large T-shirt with a glider
on it.
Flarm at the seniors..good god...might as well put a hood on everyone.
R

Good rant! Some good points in there, too. But I'm not sure that it's
proper to assume that glider pilots with a "new toy" are going to mean
more problems.

I put in a transponder and took a lot of heat for being interested in
"gadgets". That talk stopped abruptly, and the number of transponders
in my circle of glider pilots went up, the evening a friend and I
landed with a tale about a Lear Jet who turned to avoid the two of us
while we were thermalling. The next subject of conversation was how
many new transponder equipped glider pilots saw commuter flights
noticing them, as evidenced by their turning a bit to stay clear of
the glider.

Flarm has a similar big role to play, in my opinion. Not only will it
let us gliders avoid one another, with its TIS (and soon to come TIS-
B) capability it will help us avoid the age old "doctor in the
Bonanza" who's staring at his panel.

I agree there are considerations for contests. I personally don't
think they're really big, given the European experience, but maybe us
Yanks really are 10x more competitive and will milk any bit of data to
win. Even so, I don't think it's proper to assume all new Flarm owners
will fly automatically be flying heads down. After all, Flarm is sort
of like an audio vario - if it beeps, look at it quickly to see why,
then look out again. Even us old geezers should be able to handle
that...

-John

On Jan 8, 11:09 am, hretting wrote:
I for one fear a disaster in the making and feel Flarm should be
banned from contest to allow a period of familarization. It is my
belief that Pilots + New Toys X unreal expectations + (venders x $$$)
divided by NPilots(pilots who are looking out the #!%#ing cockpit) =
****ty day at Black Rock (an old Spencer Tracy movie).
But hey, this is the opinion of a 33,000 ++ hour electrojet captain
who has seen more than his share of knuckhead pilots doing stupid
sh_t.
And now we have non-Flarmers being declared automatic leachers and
Charlie Spratt wanna-bees determining how he's going to run a
contest.
Careful.... Careful.....
Get a senior instructor (UH) who is not emotional (UH). Since this is
where we are heading, make him (UH) supreme guru who will create a
blending process to reduce the risk of Techno-Crashes. A phasing in
plan if you will. He's a sucker for extra large T-shirt with a glider
on it.
Flarm at the seniors..good god...might as well put a hood on everyone.
R