B 50 audio problems

A year ago I began having audio problems. I would only get the up
sound at 4+. Sometimes, toward the end of the flight, I didn't even
get sound at 5+. The instrument itself tracks the same as the Winter,
and the averager works ( as confirmed by another pilot in the air.).

Additionally, after an hour in the air, the Borgelt ceased issuing a
sound when I flew too fast. (Occasionally it would still emit the
appropriate sound, but there were long periods of silence when I was
flying fast at a low McR. setting.) The associated instrument did
indicate that I was flying too fast.

At this point I sent it back to the factory and paid $200. They said
that there was nothing wrong with the instrument and suggested that I
may not know how to operate it. After using it successfully for 4
years, that seemed like an odd suggestion.

Now I have a new problem. Sometimes when I find lift, the audio is
correct. Other times it indicates a rapidly increasing lift (13+ ave.
and rising) when the lift is 3 or less.

Has anyone else experienced this problem? Does anyone have any
suggestions for solving the problem other than up-grading?

On Jan 2, 10:26 am, Vsoars wrote:
A year ago I began having audio problems. I would only get the up
sound at 4+. Sometimes, toward the end of the flight, I didn't even
get sound at 5+. The instrument itself tracks the same as the Winter,
and the averager works ( as confirmed by another pilot in the air.).

Additionally, after an hour in the air, the Borgelt ceased issuing a
sound when I flew too fast. (Occasionally it would still emit the
appropriate sound, but there were long periods of silence when I was
flying fast at a low McR. setting.) The associated instrument did
indicate that I was flying too fast.

At this point I sent it back to the factory and paid $200. They said
that there was nothing wrong with the instrument and suggested that I
may not know how to operate it. After using it successfully for 4
years, that seemed like an odd suggestion.

Now I have a new problem. Sometimes when I find lift, the audio is
correct. Other times it indicates a rapidly increasing lift (13+ ave.
and rising) when the lift is 3 or less.

Has anyone else experienced this problem? Does anyone have any
suggestions for solving the problem other than up-grading?

Two thoughts:

1. Check your wiring for the speaker. It is usually external to the
unit and could be a weak spot in your system.

2. Check that your voltages are all good. Mine does odd things when
the voltage starts to drop.

3. There is a know problem with the switching from run to climb mode
that will cause some errors. This requires a new resistor, but that
should have been checked if it went back to the factory.

Sorry you are having problems, it seems odd that you would get that
response from Borgelt, I have always had good service so far with my
B50.

I has similar problems with my B-40.......................then I found
a loose speaker wire going into the back of the unit.
JJ

"Vsoars" wrote in message
...
A year ago I began having audio problems. I would only get the up
sound at 4+. Sometimes, toward the end of the flight, I didn't even
get sound at 5+. The instrument itself tracks the same as the Winter,
and the averager works ( as confirmed by another pilot in the air.).

Additionally, after an hour in the air, the Borgelt ceased issuing a
sound when I flew too fast. (Occasionally it would still emit the
appropriate sound, but there were long periods of silence when I was
flying fast at a low McR. setting.) The associated instrument did
indicate that I was flying too fast.

At this point I sent it back to the factory and paid $200. They said
that there was nothing wrong with the instrument and suggested that I
may not know how to operate it. After using it successfully for 4
years, that seemed like an odd suggestion.

Now I have a new problem. Sometimes when I find lift, the audio is
correct. Other times it indicates a rapidly increasing lift (13+ ave.
and rising) when the lift is 3 or less.

Has anyone else experienced this problem? Does anyone have any
suggestions for solving the problem other than up-grading?

Yes, it came back here last Easter and we checked it. This involves
disassembly, careful checking of the solder joints on the boards, reassembly
and a functional check running for several hours on the bench. If it still
works OK (and I couldn't get that unit to miss a beat on our test rig), I
heat the things up to +50 deg C and check again and again at -20 deg C after
a cold soak in the freezer. I couldn't get that unit to fail as I notified
the owner at the time before sending it back.

Yes we charge for our time when checking out of warranty instruments. The
charge was A$100(about US$80 or so at the time I think). This compares
rather favorably with what our local TV/hifi repair shop charges.

The fault description was somewhat incomprehensible without clarification
which lead me to believe that there was something wrong with the
cruise/climb switching or that the owner didn't properly understand the
logic behind how the the audio is meant to work. This has happened before. A
loose speaker wire or faulty speaker or loose cruise climb switch wire can
also cause odd symptoms which of course won't be present on the instrument
when we test it.

It is possible there is a bad component in that B50. If it can be got to
fail consistently or even fail on my bench we can fix it. We do, however,
charge for out of warranty repairs and shipping is paid for by the owner. It
would also help if we were notified that the problem was still present or
that other symptoms were now occurring.

I find the statement:

"Sometimes when I find lift, the audio is
correct. Other times it indicates a rapidly increasing lift (13+ ave.
and rising) when the lift is 3 or less."

less than clear. Does this mean the averager now reads 13 knots sometimes
when it should read 3 knots? And the audio follows this? What is the vario
indication doing? I don't know.

I do know a large percentage of problems are in the installation in the
glider which is why we ask you to contact us so we can discuss the problem
and run a few simple checks to eliminate these. Like the club with a two
seater recently who weren't getting good total energy for the year they had
had the new glider. After being contacted recently I discussed the problem
with the guy trying to fix it and eventually I asked him to leak check the
line(which should have been done on installation originally). Turns out the
TE probe was plugged in to a triple probe fitting with the spare unused
tubes open in the cockpit.

Mike Borgelt

On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 09:26:24 -0800, Vsoars wrote:

A year ago I began having audio problems. I would only get the up sound
at 4+. Sometimes, toward the end of the flight, I didn't even get sound
at 5+. The instrument itself tracks the same as the Winter, and the
averager works ( as confirmed by another pilot in the air.).

Additionally, after an hour in the air, the Borgelt ceased issuing a
sound when I flew too fast. (Occasionally it would still emit the
appropriate sound, but there were long periods of silence when I was
flying fast at a low McR. setting.) The associated instrument did
indicate that I was flying too fast.

At this point I sent it back to the factory and paid $200. They said
that there was nothing wrong with the instrument and suggested that I
may not know how to operate it. After using it successfully for 4
years, that seemed like an odd suggestion.

Now I have a new problem. Sometimes when I find lift, the audio is
correct. Other times it indicates a rapidly increasing lift (13+ ave.
and rising) when the lift is 3 or less.

Has anyone else experienced this problem? Does anyone have any
suggestions for solving the problem other than up-grading?

The instrument has been checked on the bench and no problems were found,
but the symptoms persist. Obviously the fault lies in the glider.

First thing to check is the battery. Is the battery also 4 years old?
Does the problem get worse when you press the ptt switch on the radio?

Batteries fail in an unpredictable manner and the voltage might be
healthy on the ground before and recover soon after flight, but fade to
the point where things stop working when you need them most during
flight. Try swap the battery and see if it helps.

Then have a look at the battery wiring, plugs, fuses, switches etc. Also
look at speaker wiring and the speaker itself.

(I have noticed our B500 do similar weird things - when the battery
voltage gets down to 9.5V.)


Ian

While we are on the subject of wiring, check that the instrument is
wired with power all the way back to the positive and ground buss
strips (you do have them don't you?). Ground loops can cause all sorts
of weirdness in electronic equipment. In other words, each instrument
should be wired, _both_ power and ground, independently to a common
point - usually some sort of buss arrangement. What can happen if you,
for instance, connect the power wire from each instrument back to a
"positive" buss but connect the ground from the vario to the adjacent
radio housing which is in turn grounded to the ground buss through its
own wiring, is that a portion of the current (signal?) from one of the
instruments will actually be routed through another instrument... That
is rarely good.



So, be sure that each instrument is wired (both positive and ground
wires!!!!) back to the busses.



Larry "the REAL cable guy" Goddard



"Ian" wrote in message
:

On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 09:26:24 -0800, Vsoars wrote:

A year ago I began having audio problems. I would only get the up sound
at 4+. Sometimes, toward the end of the flight, I didn't even get sound
at 5+. The instrument itself tracks the same as the Winter, and the
averager works ( as confirmed by another pilot in the air.).

Additionally, after an hour in the air, the Borgelt ceased issuing a
sound when I flew too fast. (Occasionally it would still emit the
appropriate sound, but there were long periods of silence when I was
flying fast at a low McR. setting.) The associated instrument did
indicate that I was flying too fast.

At this point I sent it back to the factory and paid $200. They said
that there was nothing wrong with the instrument and suggested that I
may not know how to operate it. After using it successfully for 4
years, that seemed like an odd suggestion.

Now I have a new problem. Sometimes when I find lift, the audio is
correct. Other times it indicates a rapidly increasing lift (13+ ave.
and rising) when the lift is 3 or less.

Has anyone else experienced this problem? Does anyone have any
suggestions for solving the problem other than up-grading?

The instrument has been checked on the bench and no problems were found,
but the symptoms persist. Obviously the fault lies in the glider.

First thing to check is the battery. Is the battery also 4 years old?
Does the problem get worse when you press the ptt switch on the radio?

Batteries fail in an unpredictable manner and the voltage might be
healthy on the ground before and recover soon after flight, but fade to
the point where things stop working when you need them most during
flight. Try swap the battery and see if it helps.

Then have a look at the battery wiring, plugs, fuses, switches etc. Also
look at speaker wiring and the speaker itself.

(I have noticed our B500 do similar weird things - when the battery
voltage gets down to 9.5V.)


Ian

On Jan 3, 4:03 pm, "01-- Zero One" wrote:
While we are on the subject of wiring, check that the instrument is
wired with power all the way back to the positive and ground buss
strips (you do have them don't you?). Ground loops can cause all sorts
of weirdness in electronic equipment. In other words, each instrument
should be wired, _both_ power and ground, independently to a common
point - usually some sort of buss arrangement. What can happen if you,
for instance, connect the power wire from each instrument back to a
"positive" buss but connect the ground from the vario to the adjacent
radio housing which is in turn grounded to the ground buss through its
own wiring, is that a portion of the current (signal?) from one of the
instruments will actually be routed through another instrument... That
is rarely good.

So, be sure that each instrument is wired (both positive and ground
wires!!!!) back to the busses.

Larry "the REAL cable guy" Goddard

"Ian" wrote in message

:



On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 09:26:24 -0800, Vsoars wrote:

A year ago I began having audio problems. I would only get the up sound
at 4+. Sometimes, toward the end of the flight, I didn't even get sound
at 5+. The instrument itself tracks the same as the Winter, and the
averager works ( as confirmed by another pilot in the air.).

Additionally, after an hour in the air, the Borgelt ceased issuing a
sound when I flew too fast. (Occasionally it would still emit the
appropriate sound, but there were long periods of silence when I was
flying fast at a low McR. setting.) The associated instrument did
indicate that I was flying too fast.

At this point I sent it back to the factory and paid $200. They said
that there was nothing wrong with the instrument and suggested that I
may not know how to operate it. After using it successfully for 4
years, that seemed like an odd suggestion.

Now I have a new problem. Sometimes when I find lift, the audio is
correct. Other times it indicates a rapidly increasing lift (13+ ave.
and rising) when the lift is 3 or less.

Has anyone else experienced this problem? Does anyone have any
suggestions for solving the problem other than up-grading?

The instrument has been checked on the bench and no problems were found,
but the symptoms persist. Obviously the fault lies in the glider.

First thing to check is the battery. Is the battery also 4 years old?
Does the problem get worse when you press the ptt switch on the radio?

Batteries fail in an unpredictable manner and the voltage might be
healthy on the ground before and recover soon after flight, but fade to
the point where things stop working when you need them most during
flight. Try swap the battery and see if it helps.

Then have a look at the battery wiring, plugs, fuses, switches etc. Also
look at speaker wiring and the speaker itself.

(I have noticed our B500 do similar weird things - when the battery
voltage gets down to 9.5V.)

Ian- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have flown over 600 hours with the Borgelt, using it at contests,
record and Diamond flights. My partner in this glider is an electrical
engineer. I came to this group to get specific suggestions since
returning the instrument to the manufacturer didn't work. And several
people have given us some excellent ideas. Thanks for those of you who
provided suggestions.

The manufacturer chose to enter the dialog. As he had said in earlier
communication, Borgelt suggests that,"the owner didn't properly
understand the logic behind how the audio is meant to work."

That was not helpful. It rarely is helpful to place the blame on the
consumer, especially one who has so much experience using all of the
features of this instrument. I doubt if any of you would have liked
to get this type of public response. If I had wanted a kick in the
shin, I would have directly corresponded with Mike Borgelt.

The B50 worked for most of the 600 hours. Because I use one battery
to power the radio and the Volkslogger, I switch between two
batteries; both produce the problem. One is less than a year old; the
other just over a year in use. I have never had a flight tract
rejected by OLC or the NAA, indicating that the power supply is
adequate.

This instrument was installed at the factory. It didn't work
correctly, so we re-did the tubing. Finally we sent it back to the
factory and they replaced the malfunctioning component. Whether it
came from the factory with the defect, or the problem occurred before
it was delivered here, I have no way of knowing. After that initial
problem, I had no problems till recently.

When an audio instrument starts screaming and the averager continues
to climb till I shut off the power while the Winter shows 3 up, then
one conclude that there is a problem, likewise the intermittent non-
responding audio when I exceed the speed to fly.

I checked and discovered that we purchased the B50 in 2001. Maybe that
is the life of this particular instrument. I hope that is not the case
(All my other instruments are years older.) I still hold out hope that
some of the suggestions will provide a solution. I'm requesting that
Borgelt limit his responses to a direct email to me. Otherwise, I'd
appreciate anyone's ideas.