Towing Accident Rate vs GA?

I know that I can review the NTSB database and answer this myself but I am hoping that someone else has already done the homework.

Two Questions
1. What is the accident, incident and/or fatality rate of towing gliders vs GA?
2. Same question but comparing glider flying in general to GA.

I don't recall ever hearing statistics for #1 above. Tom Knauff has referred to statistics that suggest flying gliders is slightly more dangerous than GA(maybe it was comparing gliders to driving your car).

Thanks,
Jamie Shore

I thought glider flying was 4 times more dangerous then GA. Our
annual death toll is low likely because there are so few participants,
flying relatively low hours(for the most part.) No idea about
towing #'s, but we seem to lose a tow pilot or two a year, how many
tow pilots are there? Couple thousand? With 30000 glider pilots in
the US, less than half that as members of the SSA(some of them are
inactive life members, and people that renew because they are going to
fly this year...), I'd guess 5,000 'active' glider pilots, even at
15,000 active pilots the numbers per participant are up there. I'm
not advocating for anything just pointing out that gliding is more
dangerous than it appears.
On Jan 25, 7:40*am, Jamie Shore wrote:
I know that I can review the NTSB database and answer this myself but I am hoping that someone else has already done the homework.

Two Questions
1. What is the accident, incident and/or fatality rate of towing gliders vs GA?
2. Same question but comparing glider flying in general to GA.

I don't recall ever hearing statistics for #1 above. Tom Knauff has referred to statistics that suggest flying gliders is slightly more dangerous than GA(maybe it was comparing gliders to driving your car).

Thanks,
Jamie Shore

At 13:45 25 January 2011, wrote:
I thought glider flying was 4 times more dangerous then GA. Our
annual death toll is low likely because there are so few participants,
flying relatively low hours(for the most part.) No idea about
towing #'s, but we seem to lose a tow pilot or two a year, how many
tow pilots are there? Couple thousand? With 30000 glider pilots in
the US, less than half that as members of the SSA(some of them are
inactive life members, and people that renew because they are going to
fly this year...), I'd guess 5,000 'active' glider pilots, even at
15,000 active pilots the numbers per participant are up there. I'm
not advocating for anything just pointing out that gliding is more
dangerous than it appears.
On Jan 25, 7:40=A0am, Jamie Shore wrote:
I know that I can review the NTSB database and answer this myself but
I
a=
m hoping that someone else has already done the homework.

Two Questions
1. What is the accident, incident and/or fatality rate of towing
gliders
=
vs GA?
2. Same question but comparing glider flying in general to GA.

I don't recall ever hearing statistics for #1 above. Tom Knauff has
refer=
red to statistics that suggest flying gliders is slightly more dangerous
th=
an GA(maybe it was comparing gliders to driving your car).

Thanks,
Jamie Shore



I don't know about the US, but I was recently sent some figure from a UK
AAIB (Air Accident Investigation Branch Report)

On an hourly basis, the UK accident rates over a 10 period we

light aircraft:
174.4 reportable accidents per million hours
10.6 fatal accidents per million hours (3 out of 85 fatal accidents
involved a glider tug)

light helicopters:
128.8 reportable accidents per million hours
15.9 fatal accidents per million hours.

gyroplanes:
1,422.4 reportable accidents per million hours
400.0 fatal accidents per million hours (!!)

microlights:
347.0 reportable accidents per million hours
17.9 fatal accidents per million hours.

gliders (based on BGA statistics):
322.4 reportable accidents per million hours
24.0 fatal accidents per million hours.

So on an hourly basis, gliding in the UK is about twice as dangerous as
GA, but about as dangerous as microlighting (... and don't even think
about a gyro plane!)

However, average flight times for gliders are short (about 13mins -
probably since the majority of training in the UK is done on winch
launches), so accidents per movement is probably a better indicator of
safety -

70.7 reportable accidents per million launches
5.3 fatal accidents per million launches.

I don't have the data for average GA flight duration, but I'd bet it's
rather longer than 13min - even if it's only half an hour, that brings
the accident rate per movement to a comparable level to gliding

Doug

On Jan 25, 8:47*am, Doug Greenwell wrote:

I don't have the data for average GA flight duration, but I'd bet it's
rather longer than 13min - even if it's only half an hour, that brings
the accident rate per movement to a comparable level to gliding

Not sure that's valid unless you know the nature of the GA flight.
That half hour could have one takeoff and one landing or it could have
been spent circuit bashing (performing multiple takeoffs and
landings).

Andy

At 18:23 25 January 2011, Andy wrote:
On Jan 25, 8:47=A0am, Doug Greenwell wrote:

I don't have the data for average GA flight duration, but I'd bet
it's
rather longer than 13min - even if it's only half an hour, that
brings
the accident rate per movement to a comparable level to gliding

Not sure that's valid unless you know the nature of the GA flight.
That half hour could have one takeoff and one landing or it could have
been spent circuit bashing (performing multiple takeoffs and
landings).

Andy

fair point - this is the trouble with comparing accident records of any
sort ... what's a good indicator for one activity doesn't give a clear
picture for another. I guess you'd have to drill down into accident
rates by flight phase - which I'm sure someone somewhere must have done.


Still the odds look pretty good to me ... I have more heart-stoppingly
near-death experiences in one days cycling than in a years flying, and the
proportion of mad b*&%$&s actually trying to kill you is far lower :-)

Doug

On Jan 25, 5:45*am, "
wrote:
I thought glider flying was 4 times more dangerous then GA. *Our
annual death toll is low likely because there are so few participants,
flying relatively low hours(for the most part.) * * No idea about
towing #'s, but we seem to lose a tow pilot or two a year, how many
tow pilots are there? *Couple thousand? *With 30000 glider pilots in
the US, less than half that as members of the SSA(some of them are
inactive life members, and people that renew because they are going to
fly this year...), I'd guess 5,000 'active' *glider pilots, even at
15,000 active pilots the numbers per participant are up there. *I'm
not advocating for anything just pointing out that gliding is more
dangerous than it appears.
On Jan 25, 7:40*am, Jamie Shore wrote:



I know that I can review the NTSB database and answer this myself but I am hoping that someone else has already done the homework.

Two Questions
1. What is the accident, incident and/or fatality rate of towing gliders vs GA?
2. Same question but comparing glider flying in general to GA.

I don't recall ever hearing statistics for #1 above. Tom Knauff has referred to statistics that suggest flying gliders is slightly more dangerous than GA(maybe it was comparing gliders to driving your car).

Thanks,
Jamie Shore

I am not aware of any tow pilot or tow plane losses in the last few
years during tow or as a result of glider actions on tow.
I am aware of tow plane/pilot losses caused either by a 3rd aircraft
interaction (Colorado) or a midair back in the traffic pattern after
release and during landing. Not related to the act of towing.

T

T wrote:
I am not aware of any tow pilot or tow plane losses in the last few
years during tow or as a result of glider actions on tow.
I am aware of tow plane/pilot losses caused either by a 3rd aircraft
interaction (Colorado) or a midair back in the traffic pattern after
release and during landing. Not related to the act of towing.

I am aware of one. There was a tragic accident about 16 months ago at our
glider club in which our tow pilot (and club president) and was killed
during a tow. The NTSB released a probable cause just last month (and
the local paper had a story also):

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?...09FA414&rpt=fi
http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms...rash-plane.csp

I knew him somewhat, but not deeply. He never struck me as someone who was
cavalier about safety, so the mistakes that were made are doubly sad.

I note that the NTSB did not fault the student glider pilot for
inadvertently moving out of position due to the distraction. I suppose
other than making sure your mental facilities are unimpaired, clubs with
SGS 2-33's might want to make doubly sure that the back door is properly
secured prior to any launch - particularly with low time pilots.

On Jan 25, 8:22*pm, Jim Logajan wrote:
T wrote:
I am not aware of any tow pilot or tow plane losses in the last few
years during tow or as a result of glider actions on tow.
I am aware of tow plane/pilot losses caused either by a 3rd aircraft
interaction (Colorado) or a midair back in the traffic pattern after
release and during landing. Not related to the act of towing.

I am aware of one. There was a tragic accident about 16 months ago at our
glider club in which our tow pilot (and club president) and was killed
during a tow. The NTSB released a probable cause just last month (and
the local paper had a story also):

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?...25708653-55/he...

I knew him somewhat, but not deeply. He never struck me as someone who was
cavalier about safety, so the mistakes that were made are doubly sad.

I note that the NTSB did not fault the student glider pilot for
inadvertently moving out of position due to the distraction. I suppose
other than making sure your mental facilities are unimpaired, clubs with
SGS 2-33's might want to make doubly sure that the back door is properly
secured prior to any launch - particularly with low time pilots.

Thank you for the information. That accident did not appear on any
discussion forums as others do so I missed it.
Valid points for any doors, canopies, or latches on any glider with
more than one entry point. A 2-33, Grob 103, or ASK-21.

More argument for Tost tow assemblies.

It appears the NTSB concentrated on the tow pilots medical report.

T

On Jan 26, 12:41*am, T wrote:
On Jan 25, 8:22*pm, Jim Logajan wrote:



T wrote:
I am not aware of any tow pilot or tow plane losses in the last few
years during tow or as a result of glider actions on tow.
I am aware of tow plane/pilot losses caused either by a 3rd aircraft
interaction (Colorado) or a midair back in the traffic pattern after
release and during landing. Not related to the act of towing.

I am aware of one. There was a tragic accident about 16 months ago at our
glider club in which our tow pilot (and club president) and was killed
during a tow. The NTSB released a probable cause just last month (and
the local paper had a story also):

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?...ihttp://www.re......

I knew him somewhat, but not deeply. He never struck me as someone who was
cavalier about safety, so the mistakes that were made are doubly sad.

I note that the NTSB did not fault the student glider pilot for
inadvertently moving out of position due to the distraction. I suppose
other than making sure your mental facilities are unimpaired, clubs with
SGS 2-33's might want to make doubly sure that the back door is properly
secured prior to any launch - particularly with low time pilots.

Thank you for the information. That accident did not appear on any
discussion forums as others do so I missed it.
Valid points for any doors, canopies, or latches on any glider with
more than one entry point. A 2-33, Grob 103, or ASK-21.

More argument for Tost tow assemblies.

It appears the NTSB concentrated on the tow pilots medical report.

T

Hmm, very interesting report. I thought we were about to launch on
the
annual extended discussion of Schweitzer hooks and gliders.

However, I will point out that a student pilot's actions are
considered
to be up to the instructor's judgement, even if the student is flying
solo. The instructor must have suitably trained the student to handle
the flight before turning them loose, and must supervise all their
flights
until their checkride. I think that's part of the NTSB attitude in
the
report, although they don't mention the instructor.

-- Matt

On Jan 26, 7:53*am, mattm wrote:
On Jan 26, 12:41*am, T wrote:





On Jan 25, 8:22*pm, Jim Logajan wrote:

T wrote:
I am not aware of any tow pilot or tow plane losses in the last few
years during tow or as a result of glider actions on tow.
I am aware of tow plane/pilot losses caused either by a 3rd aircraft
interaction (Colorado) or a midair back in the traffic pattern after
release and during landing. Not related to the act of towing.

I am aware of one. There was a tragic accident about 16 months ago at our
glider club in which our tow pilot (and club president) and was killed
during a tow. The NTSB released a probable cause just last month (and
the local paper had a story also):

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?...http://www..re......

I knew him somewhat, but not deeply. He never struck me as someone who was
cavalier about safety, so the mistakes that were made are doubly sad.

I note that the NTSB did not fault the student glider pilot for
inadvertently moving out of position due to the distraction. I suppose
other than making sure your mental facilities are unimpaired, clubs with
SGS 2-33's might want to make doubly sure that the back door is properly
secured prior to any launch - particularly with low time pilots.

Thank you for the information. That accident did not appear on any
discussion forums as others do so I missed it.
Valid points for any doors, canopies, or latches on any glider with
more than one entry point. A 2-33, Grob 103, or ASK-21.

More argument for Tost tow assemblies.

It appears the NTSB concentrated on the tow pilots medical report.

T

Hmm, very interesting report. *I thought we were about to launch on
the
annual extended discussion of Schweitzer hooks and gliders.

However, I will point out that a student pilot's actions are
considered
to be up to the instructor's judgement, even if the student is flying
solo. *The instructor must have suitably trained the student to handle
the flight before turning them loose, and must supervise all their
flights
until their checkride. *I think that's part of the NTSB attitude in
the
report, although they don't mention the instructor.

-- Matt- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The student did as trained.. was distracted.. noticed he was out of
position with tow in sight.. attempted to recover to proper position..
lost sight of tow and released and returned to the field.

What else is the instructor to do?

Nothing mentioned of the instructor in the final report. If it was an
"unsupervised solo", it might have been mentioned.

IIRC from other threads, only the insurance company requires the
instructor to be on the field for direct supversion. Not the FARs.

T