Buying/selling homebuilts

Browsing controller.com I noticed that there is a category for
homebuilt/experimental aircraft. My limited understanding of
homebuilt aircraft is that it is an experimental plane, built for the
pleasure/education of the builder. The builder of said plane, being
the mfr, may work on it or an A&P mechanic can.

I didn't think the FAA would allow someone to legally fly an
experimental they bought; however, the number of planes on controller
indicate that this is allowed or at least not enforced. I am curious
then about a few things:

1. Are there people who just build kit/plan planes to sell them?
2. Does the FAA simply choose to ignore them?
3. What responsibilities does the builder have with the plane?
4. As the owner of a homebuilt they didn't build, can the purchaser
work on the plane or does it now become like a 172 that must be
repaired by an A&P guy?
5. How much can you trust a purchased homebuilt? I know they have to
get an airworthiness inspection to fly but that doesn't mean it was
built well. Is there a certain minimum level of quality a plane must
have to get the certificate?

es330td wrote:
Browsing controller.com I noticed that there is a category for
homebuilt/experimental aircraft. My limited understanding of
homebuilt aircraft is that it is an experimental plane, built for the
pleasure/education of the builder. The builder of said plane, being
the mfr, may work on it or an A&P mechanic can.

I didn't think the FAA would allow someone to legally fly an
experimental they bought; however, the number of planes on controller
indicate that this is allowed or at least not enforced. I am curious
then about a few things:

1. Are there people who just build kit/plan planes to sell them?
2. Does the FAA simply choose to ignore them?
3. What responsibilities does the builder have with the plane?
4. As the owner of a homebuilt they didn't build, can the purchaser
work on the plane or does it now become like a 172 that must be
repaired by an A&P guy?
5. How much can you trust a purchased homebuilt? I know they have to
get an airworthiness inspection to fly but that doesn't mean it was
built well. Is there a certain minimum level of quality a plane must
have to get the certificate?

What you think that once you build a HB you are stuck with it for life.
Of course you can sell it and the new owner can fly it. Now for your
questions.

1. Yes there are people that build Exp-HBs JUST to sell them. And it is
a violation.
2. The FAA is going to come down on these guys sooner or later.
3. That is a legal question that doesn't have a lot of case law on it.
4. The owner or anybody else can work on a Exp-HB. What he can't do is
the annual inspection. Only an A&P or the original builder who got the
Repairman's certificate can do that.
5. Like any aircraft you should get someone you trust to go over it.

On Feb 6, 5:47*pm, Gig 601XL Builder
wrote:


Well...It didn't make sense to me that only the builder of a plane can
fly it; what would happen when they eventually pass on? Are all
builders supposed to be buried in their plane? Since I don't have a
HB (though there are a couple I'd like) I really didn't know anything
the actual rules.

es330td wrote:
3. What responsibilities does the builder have with the plane?

Here's one link that discusses this issue (note that it mentions the death
of John Denver in a homebuilt and a lawsuit involving a death in a
homebuilt gyroplane):

http://www.aviationlawcorp.com/content/liabhomeblt.html

5. How much can you trust a purchased homebuilt? I know they have to
get an airworthiness inspection to fly but that doesn't mean it was
built well. Is there a certain minimum level of quality a plane must
have to get the certificate?

Here's one broad overview article of buying and selling homebuilt aircraft
that briefly discusses those issues:

http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/pdfs/0200p22.pdf

On Feb 6, 5:00*pm, es330td wrote:
On Feb 6, 5:47*pm, Gig 601XL Builder
wrote:

Well...It didn't make sense to me that only the builder of a plane can
fly it; what would happen when they eventually pass on? Are all
builders supposed to be buried in their plane? *Since I don't have a
HB (though there are a couple I'd like) I really didn't know anything
the actual rules.

I know of a few builders who would probably love to be buried in their
plane but NO, it is not necessary. On the issue of trusting a
homebuilt aircraft, I would probably be more trusting of most of the
homebuilt aircraft that I have seen than many production aircraft,
especially some of the 20-30+ year old planes out there. While I have
seen a few less than stellar homebuilts, most are built to what I
would consider higher standards than any production aircraft.

That said, you would be well advised to do a very complete inspection
of any homebuilt you are considering buying. Having an inspection by
an A&P would be adviseable rather you are buying a homebuilt or used
production plane.

"es330td" wrote in message
...
Browsing controller.com I noticed that there is a category for
homebuilt/experimental aircraft. My limited understanding of
homebuilt aircraft is that it is an experimental plane, built for the
pleasure/education of the builder. The builder of said plane, being
the mfr, may work on it or an A&P mechanic can.

Or, if you buy it, you can work on it. The builder can do the annual
"condition inspection" (assuming the get a repairmans's certificate). A
second owner would have to get an A&P, an AI, or the original owner to do the
inspections.


I didn't think the FAA would allow someone to legally fly an
experimental they bought; however, the number of planes on controller
indicate that this is allowed or at least not enforced. I am curious
then about a few things:

It's legal to sell and buy a homebuilt.

1. Are there people who just build kit/plan planes to sell them?

Yes. Though, that is not the intent of the regs.

2. Does the FAA simply choose to ignore them?

Depends.

3. What responsibilities does the builder have with the plane?

Pretty much the same as Cessna or Piper or... You wreck it, your heirs can
attempt to sue the builder.

4. As the owner of a homebuilt they didn't build, can the purchaser
work on the plane or does it now become like a 172 that must be
repaired by an A&P guy?

As above, you can do work, but the inspections must be done by an A&P (or AI)
so it makes a lot of sense to not do the work without making sure the A&P
will sign off on it when the time comes.

One would also want to make sure that one's A&P of choice is willing to
inspect and sign the work done by the original builder BEFORE putting a money
down. Remember - it is likely that the aircraft has never been seen by an
A&P...

5. How much can you trust a purchased homebuilt? I know they have to
get an airworthiness inspection to fly but that doesn't mean it was
built well. Is there a certain minimum level of quality a plane must
have to get the certificate?
Buyer Beware. The FAA makes sure you have done all the required paperwork.

Most homebuilts are very well built. But there are those with flaws. Even if
it looks well built, it's possible, for example, that the builder liked to
"add stuff" and/or "beef it up a bit" and/or but a larger than original
engine and... It wouldn't be the first time a very nice looking homebuilt
with all the bells and whistles came out with an empty weight that exceeds
the designers intended gross weight. Find someone who has built and flown the
type you are looking at to inspect the aircraft with you (along with your
choice of A&P). Most common designs have some kind of builders association
who can help you out.

There are a lot of really nice homebulit aircraft out there. But you (as a
buyer) have to do some extra work to make sure you know what you are really
getting.

Remember - each individual homebuilt aircraft is unique.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 14:05:19 -0800 (PST), es330td wrote:

Browsing controller.com I noticed that there is a category for
homebuilt/experimental aircraft. My limited understanding of
homebuilt aircraft is that it is an experimental plane, built for the
pleasure/education of the builder. The builder of said plane, being
the mfr, may work on it or an A&P mechanic can.

I didn't think the FAA would allow someone to legally fly an
experimental they bought; however, the number of planes on controller
indicate that this is allowed or at least not enforced. I am curious
then about a few things:

1. Are there people who just build kit/plan planes to sell them?
2. Does the FAA simply choose to ignore them?
3. What responsibilities does the builder have with the plane?
4. As the owner of a homebuilt they didn't build, can the purchaser
work on the plane or does it now become like a 172 that must be
repaired by an A&P guy?

Anyone can *work* on a homebuilt, but it takes either the original builder or an
A&P to do the yearly condition inspection (e.g., "annual," but not really).

5. How much can you trust a purchased homebuilt? I know they have to
get an airworthiness inspection to fly but that doesn't mean it was
built well. Is there a certain minimum level of quality a plane must
have to get the certificate?

Been flying a used homebuilt for ~12 years...in fact, I'm the fourth owner of
it.

Your posting reminded me that I forgot to post the FAQ this month. See the
separate posting....

Ron Wanttaja

As Capt Thorpe stated, after purchasing a homebuilt aircraft you can do
repairs and modifications.

In my case, I purchased a HP-14 sailplane. This was my second Schreder
design. An overview of the work performed prior to flying the bird is
contained in the second paragraph of the following link.
(http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-14/N990/N990.html)
The second paragraph is a summery of 26 log book entries. Once I thought my
HP-14 was safe to fly I had an A&P perform a condition inspection. (In my
case my inspector didn't need to have the P-powerplant designation.)

This homebuilt had given me three years of enjoyable soaring. This winter I
am in the process of modifying the wings to fuselage fairings, control hinge
seals, etc in order to improve performance. Again, my work will be
inspected during my yearly condition inspection.

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder


"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk At Wow Way D0t C0m wrote in message
...
"es330td" wrote in message
...
Browsing controller.com I noticed that there is a category for
homebuilt/experimental aircraft. My limited understanding of
homebuilt aircraft is that it is an experimental plane, built for the
pleasure/education of the builder. The builder of said plane, being
the mfr, may work on it or an A&P mechanic can.

Or, if you buy it, you can work on it. The builder can do the annual
"condition inspection" (assuming the get a repairmans's certificate). A
second owner would have to get an A&P, an AI, or the original owner to do
the inspections.


I didn't think the FAA would allow someone to legally fly an
experimental they bought; however, the number of planes on controller
indicate that this is allowed or at least not enforced. I am curious
then about a few things:

It's legal to sell and buy a homebuilt.

1. Are there people who just build kit/plan planes to sell them?

Yes. Though, that is not the intent of the regs.

2. Does the FAA simply choose to ignore them?

Depends.

3. What responsibilities does the builder have with the plane?

Pretty much the same as Cessna or Piper or... You wreck it, your heirs can
attempt to sue the builder.

4. As the owner of a homebuilt they didn't build, can the purchaser
work on the plane or does it now become like a 172 that must be
repaired by an A&P guy?

As above, you can do work, but the inspections must be done by an A&P (or
AI) so it makes a lot of sense to not do the work without making sure the
A&P will sign off on it when the time comes.

One would also want to make sure that one's A&P of choice is willing to
inspect and sign the work done by the original builder BEFORE putting a
money down. Remember - it is likely that the aircraft has never been seen
by an A&P...

5. How much can you trust a purchased homebuilt? I know they have to
get an airworthiness inspection to fly but that doesn't mean it was
built well. Is there a certain minimum level of quality a plane must
have to get the certificate?
Buyer Beware. The FAA makes sure you have done all the required paperwork.

Most homebuilts are very well built. But there are those with flaws. Even
if it looks well built, it's possible, for example, that the builder liked
to "add stuff" and/or "beef it up a bit" and/or but a larger than original
engine and... It wouldn't be the first time a very nice looking homebuilt
with all the bells and whistles came out with an empty weight that exceeds
the designers intended gross weight. Find someone who has built and flown
the type you are looking at to inspect the aircraft with you (along with
your choice of A&P). Most common designs have some kind of builders
association who can help you out.

There are a lot of really nice homebulit aircraft out there. But you (as a
buyer) have to do some extra work to make sure you know what you are
really getting.

Remember - each individual homebuilt aircraft is unique.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 16:20:11 -0800 (PST), BobR
wrote:


I know of a few builders who would probably love to be buried in their
plane but NO, it is not necessary. On the issue of trusting a
homebuilt aircraft, I would probably be more trusting of most of the
homebuilt aircraft that I have seen than many production aircraft,

My CFI says the same thing. There are a bunch of homebuilts at the
airfield at which I am learning and he speaks very highly of the
general quality of them. One of his planes shares a hanger with a
very nice Velocity RG (that happens to be for sale)

"Matthew Speed" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 16:20:11 -0800 (PST), BobR
wrote:


I know of a few builders who would probably love to be buried in their
plane but NO, it is not necessary. On the issue of trusting a
homebuilt aircraft, I would probably be more trusting of most of the
homebuilt aircraft that I have seen than many production aircraft,

My CFI says the same thing. There are a bunch of homebuilts at the
airfield at which I am learning and he speaks very highly of the
general quality of them. One of his planes shares a hanger with a
very nice Velocity RG (that happens to be for sale)

Saw one of those on final approach to Tacoma Narrows airport the other day.
Damn if'n they aren't pretty. Like watching Princess Leia coming down final
on Waterworld. )

Rich S. (from the great Pacific NorthWet)