Are asking prices really as unrealistic as they look

Been scanning airplane ads for a while and just recently started looking
some of them up using AOPA's Vref service for members.

According to that, most of the airplanes I see advertised are way
overpriced, some by significant margins.

Are the AOPA Vref prices too low? Or do people have unrealistic
expectations for what they can get? Or do people always put in lots of
wiggle room?

Mostly, people put in a lot of wiggle room. Also, they often think their
plane is better than average (just like them).

If you want to see what happens when this kind of activity gets out of hand,
go buy an oriental rug (just don't pay more than one third of the asking
price).



"xyzzy" wrote in message
...
Been scanning airplane ads for a while and just recently started looking
some of them up using AOPA's Vref service for members.

According to that, most of the airplanes I see advertised are way
overpriced, some by significant margins.

Are the AOPA Vref prices too low? Or do people have unrealistic
expectations for what they can get? Or do people always put in lots of
wiggle room?

In article , xyzzy
wrote:

Been scanning airplane ads for a while and just recently started looking
some of them up using AOPA's Vref service for members.

According to that, most of the airplanes I see advertised are way
overpriced, some by significant margins.

Are the AOPA Vref prices too low?

I doubt it. According to Vref my cherokee 140 is worth over
$50,000. However, I doubt I could get that much - nor would
it be a fair price.

I always thought Vref was at least 10% too high.

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

xyzzy wrote:
Been scanning airplane ads for a while and just recently started looking
some of them up using AOPA's Vref service for members.

According to that, most of the airplanes I see advertised are way
overpriced, some by significant margins.

Are the AOPA Vref prices too low? Or do people have unrealistic
expectations for what they can get? Or do people always put in lots of
wiggle room?


It's actually the other way around. Vref is way on the high side.
Check out the value calculator on Trade-A-Plane.

In article , xyzzy wrote:
Been scanning airplane ads for a while and just recently started looking
some of them up using AOPA's Vref service for members.

Are you sure you're estimating avionics properly? In my experience that
was the hardest thing to do from an ad. If you skim over something like
"KCS55" because you don't know what it is, or because you know it's an
HSI but you don't value an HSI you're going to get a low value.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

Actually Vref seems to be high.

Mike
MU-2


"xyzzy" wrote in message
...
Been scanning airplane ads for a while and just recently started looking
some of them up using AOPA's Vref service for members.

According to that, most of the airplanes I see advertised are way
overpriced, some by significant margins.

Are the AOPA Vref prices too low? Or do people have unrealistic
expectations for what they can get? Or do people always put in lots of
wiggle room?

xyzzy wrote:

Are the AOPA Vref prices too low?

The price Vref gives me for my aircraft is much more than I could expect to get for
it.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

Bob Noel wrote in message ...
In article , xyzzy
wrote:

I doubt it. According to Vref my cherokee 140 is worth over
$50,000. However, I doubt I could get that much - nor would
it be a fair price.

I always thought Vref was at least 10% too high.

Maybe a Cherokiee thing. If anyone ever seens an Aeronca, Cub, or
Taylorcraft that is airworth and is priced at Vref, I'll write a check
right now. In my experience, the airworthy ones are about 50%-100%
higher than Vref (although Vref is suppose to represent airworthy
planes)
-Robert

Are the AOPA Vref prices too low? Or do people have unrealistic
expectations for what they can get? Or do people always put in lots of
wiggle room?

Wow, what a great question. This topic could be (and has been ) the subject
of many hours of hangar flying.

After watching prices for the last decade (and buying two planes during that
time), my ultimate, conclusive, expert opinion is: It depends.

Some aircraft are so over-priced as to be laughable. When we were looking
for our current plane, in 2002, we test-flew a couple of real pigs that the
owners thought were Cadillacs of the sky. No amount of negotiating would
get them to budge off of their asking price.

In my experience these guys are usually (a) elderly, reluctant sellers, and
(b) wealthier than God. In short, they don't need (or really want) to sell.
Run from these folks as fast as you can, because they will fleece you.

On the other hand, some aircraft are so much better than average, because of
the meticulous care given to them by their doting owners, that they are
worth 10 - 20% more than the market price. This is a hard concept to get
your arms around, because it is so subjective, and because what one owner
does religiously may not matter to another owner.

For example, we keep the exterior of our plane meticulously clean. We
literally clean it after each flight. End result: An aircraft with perfect
paint and glass.

To some folks, this is worth a lot. To many others, it's not worth one,
single nickel -- and if I tried to sell my plane for more because of it,
they would laugh.

In my opinion, these little things tell the tale of an aircraft. An owner
isn't going to put out that kind of effort, and then skate on oil changes,
for example. You can usually judge a book by its cover, IF the airplane has
been in the same hands for a while. (If it's in a broker's hands, all bets
are off.)

On the other hand, I know of owners who fly around in the doggiest looking
pieces of crap you've ever seen, who are fairly meticulous about the
mechanical condition of their aircraft. This is not usually the case
(most aircraft owners take pride in the appearance of their aircraft), but
I've seen it more than once.

Those aircraft are your best bargains, if you can find them. An aircraft
with crappy paint and interior, but in great shape mechanically, will be
your best possible buy -- but they're really hard to find. Usually crappy
is as crappy does.

Our first plane was a '75 Warrior that had been ridden hard and put to bed
wet. Used as a trainer, it had some hangar rash, a mid-time engine, high
total hours, but great paint and a good interior. We got a fair price, but
had to spend a lot of money to get it back to "perfect" condition. By the
time we sold it, that plane was as good as a Warrior gets.

Our current plane was a bit higher up the condition scale when we bought it.
The paint was excellent, it had every speed mod ever made for a Cherokee
235 --which is a difficult plane to find -- and fairly low total time.
However, the interior was tired, and we found the engine to be making metal
at the pre-buy inspection. We adjusted our offer downwards accordingly, and
bought the plane for a fair price.

We have since installed a new leather interior, side panels, and carpet,
plus a rebuilt-to-new-spec O-540 -- and it's now in show-plane condition.

Some guys will say that it's best to buy the "perfect" plane, because it
will cost you more in the long run to fix up a dog. Mechanically, I agree
with this -- but not cosmetically. When you buy a plane with a cruddy
interior, you are able to "put your mark" on the plane, and really make it
your own, by selecting materials, color, patterns, etc. (Another
side-benefit of this process, by the way, is that your wife will get deeply
involved with the plane. This is almost always a good thing.)

Avionics is a whole different ball game that I won't go into here. Suffice
it to say that more is usually better, but better quality is ALWAYS better.

To sum up: The prices in T-A-P and VRef are high, since only a foolish
seller starts low. Beyond that, some are higher than they should be, and
some are higher because they deserve to be. It's the buyer who has to
separate the wheat from the chaff -- and THAT is why every new buyer (as
every new pilot) needs a mentor to help him along the buying process.

Buying a plane ain't like buying a car. Find a gray head at the airport,
and befriend him. Take him flying. Pick his brain. You'll always benefit.

Good luck!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 12:50:29 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

it had every speed mod ever made for a Cherokee
235 --which is a difficult plane to find --


Could you list these please? I'm interested in trying to afford a few
of these in the near future. Also, any specs on what you get for
speed would be great.

Thanks,
z