non-towered airport question

What's the general viewpoint here?

A non-towered airport near us has two runways, shaped
like an "L". Totally flat, no obstructions to vision--
airplane at the departure end for one can see airplanes
at the other. Left traffic both, so the downwind for the
short runway crosses the longer runway at midfield.
The possible conflict points are simultaneous T/O,
or crosswind for the short runway/downwind for the
long.

Today at that airport, one aircraft was in the pattern for
the shorter runway, which the wind favored. I wanted to use
the longer runway for various reasons, so exercising a sharp
look-out and making my radio calls, I proceded to do so.
Later another plane joined him.

There were no conflicts AFAIK. Everyone was doing a good job
making transmissions and keeping track of each other.
It was a good exercise for me since our new home airport has
a similar setup with both runways frequently in use -- and the
added complication of right traffic in one direction, left in
the other. I'm still getting used to it.

When a fourth aircraft called in, I decided the spatial
relationships were getting complicated and taxied over to
the short run way, did one short field landing which my instructor
would have liked and I didn't (power on), and headed for the
horizon.

Question is: how would most pilots here feel about this?
Would you feel I should have just joined with traffic
for the shorter runway? In terms of my plane's capabilities
and mine, it's plenty of runway, no reason why not. It just
wasn't what I preferred initially.

I used to be based at that airport and it wasn't uncommon, if
I was in the pattern for the short runway, to have other planes
land on the long. It never bothered me except when someone
came straight-in and obviously had no idea where the rest of
the traffic was. But one of the planes in the pattern seemed
to indicate, um, let's say displeasure with me. That doesn't
concern me -- people have to say whatever they feel improves
safety and presents them in a professional light, *hee* *hee*,
and I kept my rule of "don't argue on freq. just don't and
say you didn't"

However I figure I should ask for a sanity-check on whether
what's SOP at home is regarded as inappropriate or rude
elsewhere.

Cheers,
Sydney

However I figure I should ask for a sanity-check on whether
what's SOP at home is regarded as inappropriate or rude
elsewhere.

With three (well, okay, six) runways to choose from here at IOW, I always
try to follow the "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" rule of runway
selection, and I appreciate it when everyone else does, too.

This isn't a perfect strategy either, of course. For example, the wind can
change, and suddenly everyone is stuck using the "wrong" runway, simply due
to inertia. (This can make for some interesting plane watching -- not
everyone's cross-wind technique is as sharp as it could be! :-)

But having everyone on the same runway makes the pattern work the
smoothest -- which, ultimately, helps keep us all safe.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

No holds barred at an uncontrolled airport...but we all have to get along
together. If the preponderance of the traffic was using the short, my
feeling is that you should have joined them or gone somewhere else. Student
pilots (and I have to assume one or two in the pattern) have enough to be
concerned about without someone doing the unexpected. This applies to the
CFI flying with the student as well....although this is a learning
experience: "Look at that guy! What he is doing is legal, but not smart.
Keep your eyes on a swivel and expect the unexpected!!!"

Bob Gardner
"Snowbird" wrote in message
om...
What's the general viewpoint here?

A non-towered airport near us has two runways, shaped
like an "L". Totally flat, no obstructions to vision--
airplane at the departure end for one can see airplanes
at the other. Left traffic both, so the downwind for the
short runway crosses the longer runway at midfield.
The possible conflict points are simultaneous T/O,
or crosswind for the short runway/downwind for the
long.

Today at that airport, one aircraft was in the pattern for
the shorter runway, which the wind favored. I wanted to use
the longer runway for various reasons, so exercising a sharp
look-out and making my radio calls, I proceded to do so.
Later another plane joined him.

There were no conflicts AFAIK. Everyone was doing a good job
making transmissions and keeping track of each other.
It was a good exercise for me since our new home airport has
a similar setup with both runways frequently in use -- and the
added complication of right traffic in one direction, left in
the other. I'm still getting used to it.

When a fourth aircraft called in, I decided the spatial
relationships were getting complicated and taxied over to
the short run way, did one short field landing which my instructor
would have liked and I didn't (power on), and headed for the
horizon.

Question is: how would most pilots here feel about this?
Would you feel I should have just joined with traffic
for the shorter runway? In terms of my plane's capabilities
and mine, it's plenty of runway, no reason why not. It just
wasn't what I preferred initially.

I used to be based at that airport and it wasn't uncommon, if
I was in the pattern for the short runway, to have other planes
land on the long. It never bothered me except when someone
came straight-in and obviously had no idea where the rest of
the traffic was. But one of the planes in the pattern seemed
to indicate, um, let's say displeasure with me. That doesn't
concern me -- people have to say whatever they feel improves
safety and presents them in a professional light, *hee* *hee*,
and I kept my rule of "don't argue on freq. just don't and
say you didn't"

However I figure I should ask for a sanity-check on whether
what's SOP at home is regarded as inappropriate or rude
elsewhere.

Cheers,
Sydney

As the pilot in command you must determine which runway is best for you at
an uncontrolled airport. You cannot relinquish this responsibility to a vote
from the other pilots. That does not mean that you ignore what everybody
else is doing. You still take that into account and sometimes it is safer to
settle for a less than optimum runway if collision avoidance is more
important. Since you said that traffic conflicts were not a problem in this
case, I think then you are safe in choosing whichever runway you want. If
conditions change and additional traffic warrants a change in runway, then
you should do that.

On 12 Jan 2004 17:59:09 -0800 (Snowbird) wrote:

What's the general viewpoint here?

A non-towered airport near us has two runways, shaped
like an "L". Totally flat, no obstructions to vision--
airplane at the departure end for one can see airplanes
at the other. Left traffic both, so the downwind for the
short runway crosses the longer runway at midfield.
The possible conflict points are simultaneous T/O,
or crosswind for the short runway/downwind for the
long.

Today at that airport, one aircraft was in the pattern for
the shorter runway, which the wind favored. I wanted to use
the longer runway for various reasons, so exercising a sharp
look-out and making my radio calls, I proceded to do so.
Later another plane joined him.

There were no conflicts AFAIK. Everyone was doing a good job
making transmissions and keeping track of each other.
It was a good exercise for me since our new home airport has
a similar setup with both runways frequently in use -- and the
added complication of right traffic in one direction, left in
the other. I'm still getting used to it.

When a fourth aircraft called in, I decided the spatial
relationships were getting complicated and taxied over to
the short run way, did one short field landing which my instructor
would have liked and I didn't (power on), and headed for the
horizon.

Question is: how would most pilots here feel about this?
Would you feel I should have just joined with traffic
for the shorter runway? In terms of my plane's capabilities
and mine, it's plenty of runway, no reason why not. It just
wasn't what I preferred initially.


I think using the most active runway is the right thing to do.
It's what other pilots would expect and even though you had
things under control and using the other runway was easy for
you to handle for the other pilots it may have been too much
to deal with.

R. Hubbell


I used to be based at that airport and it wasn't uncommon, if
I was in the pattern for the short runway, to have other planes
land on the long. It never bothered me except when someone
came straight-in and obviously had no idea where the rest of
the traffic was. But one of the planes in the pattern seemed
to indicate, um, let's say displeasure with me. That doesn't
concern me -- people have to say whatever they feel improves
safety and presents them in a professional light, *hee* *hee*,
and I kept my rule of "don't argue on freq. just don't and
say you didn't"

However I figure I should ask for a sanity-check on whether
what's SOP at home is regarded as inappropriate or rude
elsewhere.

Cheers,
Sydney

I think that you did great. You have every right to use any runway you
choose but it is also prudent to work with everyone else to make the best,
safest use of a public resource. At Minden we have four runways (two are
generally for glider use only). The tow planes almost always use 30 and the
powered planes 34 and landing gliders use 30, 30R or 21 but do not cross 34.
The powered planes get to use the longest runway with a VASI, the towplanes
get a runway where nobody is rushed to attach the gliders and the gliders
get a choice of three runways, one of which is almost certain to be
unoccupied. When there is a forest fire, the tankers land on 34 and takeoff
on 16. All this happens regardless of the wind unless it is really howling
and then very few are flying anyway.

Mike
MU-2


"Snowbird" wrote in message
om...
What's the general viewpoint here?

A non-towered airport near us has two runways, shaped
like an "L". Totally flat, no obstructions to vision--
airplane at the departure end for one can see airplanes
at the other. Left traffic both, so the downwind for the
short runway crosses the longer runway at midfield.
The possible conflict points are simultaneous T/O,
or crosswind for the short runway/downwind for the
long.

Today at that airport, one aircraft was in the pattern for
the shorter runway, which the wind favored. I wanted to use
the longer runway for various reasons, so exercising a sharp
look-out and making my radio calls, I proceded to do so.
Later another plane joined him.

There were no conflicts AFAIK. Everyone was doing a good job
making transmissions and keeping track of each other.
It was a good exercise for me since our new home airport has
a similar setup with both runways frequently in use -- and the
added complication of right traffic in one direction, left in
the other. I'm still getting used to it.

When a fourth aircraft called in, I decided the spatial
relationships were getting complicated and taxied over to
the short run way, did one short field landing which my instructor
would have liked and I didn't (power on), and headed for the
horizon.

Question is: how would most pilots here feel about this?
Would you feel I should have just joined with traffic
for the shorter runway? In terms of my plane's capabilities
and mine, it's plenty of runway, no reason why not. It just
wasn't what I preferred initially.

I used to be based at that airport and it wasn't uncommon, if
I was in the pattern for the short runway, to have other planes
land on the long. It never bothered me except when someone
came straight-in and obviously had no idea where the rest of
the traffic was. But one of the planes in the pattern seemed
to indicate, um, let's say displeasure with me. That doesn't
concern me -- people have to say whatever they feel improves
safety and presents them in a professional light, *hee* *hee*,
and I kept my rule of "don't argue on freq. just don't and
say you didn't"

However I figure I should ask for a sanity-check on whether
what's SOP at home is regarded as inappropriate or rude
elsewhere.

Cheers,
Sydney

Would you feel I should have just joined with traffic
for the shorter runway?

I would have been very unhappy with the situation you describe. I stay
away from two-runway airports for just that reason!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

if collision avoidance is more
important.

When would collision avoidance *not* be more important?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:UwIMb.37328$na.29723@attbi_s04...

But having everyone on the same runway makes the pattern work the
smoothest -- which, ultimately, helps keep us all safe.

Hi Jay,

I appreciate your POV, but actually I disagree. My target
airspeed on final is 10 knots faster than well-flown brand
P or C and I usually want to fly a tighter pattern, too. So
it's actually smoothest for me to "do my own thing". It's
actually easier to space properly with orthogonal separation.
There oughta be a little web-based simulator program to show
this -- can one add two airplanes to Tim's VOR simulator?

Safer, I think that very much depends upon the circumstances.
I think it's largely a feeling of familiarity "everybody going
in the same rectangle" which makes people feel safer, but I'm
not sure it really is. I think people relax too much with
radio calls and don't always really keep a proper look-out.
I've certainly broken out or broken off or done a sudden
dive maneuver when someone who just called "entering downwind"
showed up on base or the like. Just my opinion.

OTOH I don't want to P/O people just for grins, so if there's
a tendency to *perceive* it as safer, that's relevant.

Cheers,
Sydney

Whenever I am flying at a non-controlled airport, my primary runway will be
the one appropriate to the direction of the wind. If the wind changes, I
will change. Also if I hear other aircraft still making for the "original"
runway, I will advise them of the wind/preferred runway change.

If I want to do some x-wind landing practice on a different runway from the
preferred, I will clearly announce my intentions and what runway I will be
using. However, I always make sure that I do not interfere with other
pilots. Needless to say my outside scanning becomes much more intense in
this situation; you never know when an airplane will be NORDO.

Also, if the airport is busy on that particular day, I will defer my
practices until another time. I'm not necessarily offering that as a
suggestion, it's just the way I prefer. So far it has worked real well :-).

Harry
PP-ASEL

"Snowbird" wrote in message
om...
What's the general viewpoint here?

A non-towered airport near us has two runways, shaped
like an "L". Totally flat, no obstructions to vision--
airplane at the departure end for one can see airplanes
at the other. Left traffic both, so the downwind for the
short runway crosses the longer runway at midfield.
The possible conflict points are simultaneous T/O,
or crosswind for the short runway/downwind for the
long.

Today at that airport, one aircraft was in the pattern for
the shorter runway, which the wind favored. I wanted to use
the longer runway for various reasons, so exercising a sharp
look-out and making my radio calls, I proceded to do so.
Later another plane joined him.

There were no conflicts AFAIK. Everyone was doing a good job
making transmissions and keeping track of each other.
It was a good exercise for me since our new home airport has
a similar setup with both runways frequently in use -- and the
added complication of right traffic in one direction, left in
the other. I'm still getting used to it.

When a fourth aircraft called in, I decided the spatial
relationships were getting complicated and taxied over to
the short run way, did one short field landing which my instructor
would have liked and I didn't (power on), and headed for the
horizon.

Question is: how would most pilots here feel about this?
Would you feel I should have just joined with traffic
for the shorter runway? In terms of my plane's capabilities
and mine, it's plenty of runway, no reason why not. It just
wasn't what I preferred initially.

I used to be based at that airport and it wasn't uncommon, if
I was in the pattern for the short runway, to have other planes
land on the long. It never bothered me except when someone
came straight-in and obviously had no idea where the rest of
the traffic was. But one of the planes in the pattern seemed
to indicate, um, let's say displeasure with me. That doesn't
concern me -- people have to say whatever they feel improves
safety and presents them in a professional light, *hee* *hee*,
and I kept my rule of "don't argue on freq. just don't and
say you didn't"

However I figure I should ask for a sanity-check on whether
what's SOP at home is regarded as inappropriate or rude
elsewhere.

Cheers,
Sydney