ADS-B out with a non TSO'd 1201 GPS sensor?

How does a FAA radar confirm if a non TSO'd GPS is connected to a mode S, ADS-B out transponder?

Wonder if we'll soon see a transponder, ELT,or perhaps PowerFLARM offer an option to include a TSO'd 1201 WAAS/GPS sensor board?

OK, so the transponder costs $2,300 and a TSO'd 1201 WAAS/GPS sensor adds another $3,000$7,000. That warm and fuzzy feeling rushes over me knowing the FAA is looking out for the aviation hobbyist.

Lets count...ELT, PowerFLARM, CNV, CN MFD, Butterfly vario, PNA, SPOT, cellphone...8 GPS devices. The FAA must be looking for an ice cube because any or all above could probably have saved the Titanic from that iceberg.

Remember...whoever dies with the most computers and GPS devices wins.

On Nov 12, 9:41*am, wrote:
How does a FAA radar confirm if a non TSO'd GPS is connected to a mode S, ADS-B out transponder?

Wonder if we'll soon see a transponder, ELT,or perhaps PowerFLARM offer an option to include a TSO'd 1201 WAAS/GPS sensor board?

OK, so the transponder costs $2,300 and a TSO'd 1201 WAAS/GPS sensor adds another $3,000$7,000. That warm and fuzzy feeling rushes over me knowing the FAA is looking out for the aviation hobbyist.

Lets count...ELT, PowerFLARM, CNV, CN MFD, Butterfly vario, PNA, SPOT, cellphone...8 GPS devices. The FAA must be looking for an ice cube because any or all above could probably have saved the Titanic from that iceberg.

Remember...whoever dies with the most computers and GPS devices wins.

I've been told that the ADS-B out data includes GPS quality/
reliability information that comes from the WAAS receiver. Basically a
"trust me" code. Hopefully the cost of WAAS GPS recievers will come
down in costs as we approach 2020.

On Nov 12, 7:18*pm, T wrote:
I've been told that the ADS-B out data includes GPS quality/
reliability information that comes from the WAAS receiver. Basically a
"trust me" code. Hopefully the cost of WAAS GPS recievers will come
down in costs as we approach 2020.

The Trig transponders have provision for setting the GPS data
integrity level in the configuration menus. If I had one I'd connect
any available GPS and set the integrity to LOW. I'm not asserting
that is either approved or legal.

From the installation manual:

"GPS System Integrity Level
An important metric for ADS-B ground system behaviour is the SIL or
System Integrity Level. It is intended to reflect the probability that
the GPS position source is providing erroneous information. A detailed
analysis of the contribution to system integrity is outside the scope
of this manual, and the installer may need to carry out a system
safety analysis to determine the best value to set. However, a
reasonable guideline might be:
Equipment
Transmitted Integrity Level
VFR only GPS or uncertified installation
Low
GPS installation certified for en-route and terminal IFR navigation
Medium
GPS installation certified with augmentation, such as WAAS or LAAS
High"

Andy

On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 3:22:40 PM UTC-8, Andy wrote:
On Nov 12, 7:18*pm, T wrote:

I've been told that the ADS-B out data includes GPS quality/

reliability information that comes from the WAAS receiver. Basically a

"trust me" code. Hopefully the cost of WAAS GPS recievers will come

down in costs as we approach 2020.



The Trig transponders have provision for setting the GPS data

integrity level in the configuration menus. If I had one I'd connect

any available GPS and set the integrity to LOW. I'm not asserting

that is either approved or legal.



From the installation manual:



"GPS System Integrity Level

An important metric for ADS-B ground system behaviour is the SIL or

System Integrity Level. It is intended to reflect the probability that

the GPS position source is providing erroneous information. A detailed

analysis of the contribution to system integrity is outside the scope

of this manual, and the installer may need to carry out a system

safety analysis to determine the best value to set. However, a

reasonable guideline might be:

Equipment

Transmitted Integrity Level

VFR only GPS or uncertified installation

Low

GPS installation certified for en-route and terminal IFR navigation

Medium

GPS installation certified with augmentation, such as WAAS or LAAS

High"



Andy

It sounds like you are talking about an older DO260a (the RTCA spec that defines 1090ES data-out) version of a Trig transponder or at least the documentation that came with one. If you are playing with ADS-B data-out with a Trig transponder, even if you are using a non-compliant NMEA GPS source, you probalby want to get the current DO260b firmware and setup instructions from the factory (no longer included in the manual).

DO260b significantly changes some of the over the air transmission of SIL, NIC, NACp, and NACv data that describes the GPS systems specs and performance and how that data is provided.

Its unclear how the FAA ADS-B infrastructure will deal with DO260a transmitters in future, I've heard some opinion they will just be ignored past a certain date.


Darryl

On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 3:22:40 PM UTC-8, Andy wrote:
On Nov 12, 7:18*pm, T wrote:

I've been told that the ADS-B out data includes GPS quality/

reliability information that comes from the WAAS receiver. Basically a

"trust me" code. Hopefully the cost of WAAS GPS recievers will come

down in costs as we approach 2020.



The Trig transponders have provision for setting the GPS data

integrity level in the configuration menus. If I had one I'd connect

any available GPS and set the integrity to LOW. I'm not asserting

that is either approved or legal.

Ah but please don't do that in a certified glider, if discovered I would not be surprised if the FAA made an example of any pilot, owner or A&P involved. This is all too high a visibility within the FAA to expect them to ignore transgressors.

Certified aircraft currently require an STC or which there are very few at the moment (but the few that exist are often AML (Approved Model List) STCs so apply to several aircraft makes/models at a time), but there are no STCs for gliders and nobody working on one AFAIK. Eventually the FAA is expected to remove the STC requirement... but still to require a currently expensive TSO'ed IFR/WAAS GPS.

As a part of the current STC requirement the FAA has made it clear that FSDOs are forbidden from issuing any field/337 approvals for any ADS-B data-out installs. Any A&P tryign to pull a "minor repair" or "lets not sign the logbook at all" stunt on an ADS-B data-out install is taking a bad risk.

Darryl

On Nov 13, 7:54*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
It sounds like you are talking about an older DO260a (the RTCA spec that defines 1090ES data-out) version of a Trig transponder or at least the documentation that came with one. If you are playing with ADS-B data-out with a Trig transponder, even if you are using a non-compliant NMEA GPS source, you probalby want to get the current DO260b firmware and setup instructions from the factory (no longer included in the manual).


Although I downloaded the installation manual, rather than using a
version I had on file, it seems I still used an out of date version.

The current version, which is available at
http://www.trig-avionics.com/library...0560-00-AK.pdf, does not
include the previously quoted text.

Thanks for the correction.


Andy

On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 10:56:40 AM UTC-6, Andy wrote:
On Nov 13, 7:54*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

It sounds like you are talking about an older DO260a (the RTCA spec that defines 1090ES data-out) version of a Trig transponder or at least the documentation that came with one. If you are playing with ADS-B data-out with a Trig transponder, even if you are using a non-compliant NMEA GPS source, you probalby want to get the current DO260b firmware and setup instructions from the factory (no longer included in the manual).





Although I downloaded the installation manual, rather than using a

version I had on file, it seems I still used an out of date version.



The current version, which is available at

http://www.trig-avionics.com/library...0560-00-AK.pdf, does not

include the previously quoted text.



Thanks for the correction.





Andy

HI - (This is Tim Taylor form Freeflight Systems - we make the 1201 WAAS)
First - on the checks - the FAA looks at the message you are sending which includes both position and also integrity info. Part of the integrity info is calculated real time by the GPS and part of it is fixed based on the certification level of the equipment. The real time data includes integrity of position (horizontal and vertical) and velocity (horizontal and vertical). If any of these fall below the ADS-B rule standards for any extended period, the ADS-B ground system (the SBS) flags you as "invalid" and does not pass your info on to ATC. The data does go to the airworthiness guys at the FAA and they care about installs that are transmitting but not valid. The second thing they do is check your reported position against other data they have (radar for example) and then they compare what you are saying against what they observe. If that comes out wrong you get to hear from them pretty quick. Depending on where you are, you might also see an F-16 drop by for a look.

Bottom line - if you put this stuff on your airplane you need to meet the rules - otherwise you are at best carrying weight you don't need and at worst inviting MIB to say hi.

That said, I still would want it on any airplane I was in - when it is done right you are putting some real protection around your own ship - and ATC has eyes on you - with their computer automation ready to flag any potential conflicts.

You might also want to look art 978 (UAT) ADS-B - small and light. If you are not required to have a transponder, this is a good alternative (and if you already have on it is not affected) We do significantly reduce the price of the 1201 if it is bundled with an ADS-B radio so the price is not crazy

Sorry for the long answer

On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 3:52:44 PM UTC-8, wrote:

You might also want to look art 978 (UAT) ADS-B - small and light. If you are not required to have a transponder, this is a good alternative (and if you already have on it is not affected) We do significantly reduce the price of the 1201 if it is bundled with an ADS-B radio so the price is not crazy

Actually UAT data-out in gliders is an _awful_ alternative.

Tim, you might want to do a bit of studying up on the sailplane/glider market.

Gliders in the USA already widely utilize PowerFLARM collision avoidance technology, the PowerFLARM (as used int the USA) includes a 1090ES receiver.

Even if a glider owner/pilot did not have a PowerFLARM they ought to be considerate to and aware that many other gliders they are likely to fly with will be equipped with these boxes with 1090ES data-in and to some extent those gliders will overtime likely equip with 1090ES data-out.

Gliders fly in many broad geographic locations and at times at low altitudes/close ground/mountain ridge etc. proximity where there is unlikely to be good ADS-R coverage so advocating UAT data-out for gliders may lead to lots of inter-operation issues, confusion, and is really not helpful.

And you may also not be aware of glider-community saftey programs run in some area where there are concerns about glider traffic near high density airline and fast jet traffic. There are quire a few glides int these areas that have already installed Mode C or Mode S transponders--critical for any compatibility with TCAS. The current transponder favored by glider pilots in the USA seems to be the Trig TT21/TT22. These are interesting as well to some purchasers as they provide a path to 1090ES data-out.

UAT data-in or data-out is effectively a dead duck in the USA glider market..

Darryl

On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 6:52:44 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 10:56:40 AM UTC-6, Andy wrote:

On Nov 13, 7:54*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:



It sounds like you are talking about an older DO260a (the RTCA spec that defines 1090ES data-out) version of a Trig transponder or at least the documentation that came with one. If you are playing with ADS-B data-out with a Trig transponder, even if you are using a non-compliant NMEA GPS source, you probalby want to get the current DO260b firmware and setup instructions from the factory (no longer included in the manual).











Although I downloaded the installation manual, rather than using a



version I had on file, it seems I still used an out of date version.







The current version, which is available at



http://www.trig-avionics.com/library...0560-00-AK.pdf, does not



include the previously quoted text.







Thanks for the correction.











Andy



HI - (This is Tim Taylor form Freeflight Systems - we make the 1201 WAAS)

First - on the checks - the FAA looks at the message you are sending which includes both position and also integrity info. Part of the integrity info is calculated real time by the GPS and part of it is fixed based on the certification level of the equipment. The real time data includes integrity of position (horizontal and vertical) and velocity (horizontal and vertical). If any of these fall below the ADS-B rule standards for any extended period, the ADS-B ground system (the SBS) flags you as "invalid" and does not pass your info on to ATC. The data does go to the airworthiness guys at the FAA and they care about installs that are transmitting but not valid. The second thing they do is check your reported position against other data they have (radar for example) and then they compare what you are saying against what they observe. If that comes out wrong you get to hear from them pretty quick. Depending on where you are, you might also see an F-16 drop by for a look.



Bottom line - if you put this stuff on your airplane you need to meet the rules - otherwise you are at best carrying weight you don't need and at worst inviting MIB to say hi.



That said, I still would want it on any airplane I was in - when it is done right you are putting some real protection around your own ship - and ATC has eyes on you - with their computer automation ready to flag any potential conflicts.



You might also want to look art 978 (UAT) ADS-B - small and light. If you are not required to have a transponder, this is a good alternative (and if you already have on it is not affected) We do significantly reduce the price of the 1201 if it is bundled with an ADS-B radio so the price is not crazy



Sorry for the long answer

So what is the price???

One of the approved units is the FreeFlight Systems 1201. It is posted here for less than $3000.00. However, it is only sold "installed" so additional expense.

http://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/1201

Probably should run everything - -(what it's connected to, intended use,and installer)- - by your FAA FSDO before spending any $$$$.$$. Go back up and read Darrly Ramm's Nov.13 post which says "FAA has made it clear that FSDOs are forbidden from issuing any field/337 approvals for any ADS-B data-out installs".

Beats me.