XCSoar / LK8000

I am about to make my first foray into the world of soaring software.

I will, most likely, be using a Naviter Oudie Lite hooked up to a Cambridge 302. My focus will be cross country flight (versus contest flying) for the foreseeable future.

I have read reviews and comments about both XCSoar and LK8000. They both appear to be fine products with excellent functionality.

I would be interested in your comments on ease of use (both on the ground and in the air), learning curve / ease of set up, and if one is better suited for cross country flying.

Thanks in advance for your help!

On Sat, 09 Mar 2013 18:11:53 -0800, MNLou wrote:

I am about to make my first foray into the world of soaring software.

I will, most likely, be using a Naviter Oudie Lite hooked up to a
Cambridge 302. My focus will be cross country flight (versus contest
flying) for the foreseeable future.

I have read reviews and comments about both XCSoar and LK8000. They
both appear to be fine products with excellent functionality.

I would be interested in your comments on ease of use (both on the
ground and in the air), learning curve / ease of set up, and if one is
better suited for cross country flying.

Which one to use partly depends on what hardware you'll end up running it
on: if you use an Oudie or other device that runs Windows Mobile 5 or 6
then you can use either, but if you get an Android device you can only
use XCSoar.

Both XCSoar and LK8000 have versions that run on a standard Windows PC,
so I suggest you download both, install them on a Windows box and see
which you prefer. Its worthwhile doing the comparison using the maps and
other data files you'll be flying with, so get them too: maps for LK8000
come from the LK8000 site and maps for XCSoar come from the XCSoar site,
but the other files (Glider polars, Winpilot/CAI format waypoints, OpenAir
airspace files and landout field details) are common to both programs, so
you only need to download those once.

My site contains a section about installing these programs on a variety
of devices and where to find the waypoints, airspace, etc. It is intended
for UK users, but most of the download sites have files for other parts
of the world. Here's a link to this info:

http://www.gregorie.org/gliding/pna


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

They have a lot in common, having started from a common base a few years ago. Both offer much more information and functionality than you are likely to want to take advantage of. Both will provide a superb glide computer system running on the Oudie 2 lite and linked to the Cambridge. My impression is that LK8000 is even more feature rich than XCSoar, since the LK team went on developing new functionality while the XCS team were porting it to Android.

Ideally you would find people at your club using both and ask them to give you a demo. The look is pretty different and so are the gestures/touches used to operate them. If one is more popular than the other where you fly that would a good reason to choose it. Other users can be very helpful.

Whichever you choose, spend as much time as possible studying the manual and playing with the program at home, and try to set it up so you hardly need to touch it in the air. And always fly with it in such a way that if GPS gets jammed or otherwise fails you won't have a big problem.

On Sunday, March 10, 2013 3:11:53 AM UTC+1, MNLou wrote:
I am about to make my first foray into the world of soaring software.



I will, most likely, be using a Naviter Oudie Lite hooked up to a Cambridge 302. My focus will be cross country flight (versus contest flying) for the foreseeable future.



I have read reviews and comments about both XCSoar and LK8000. They both appear to be fine products with excellent functionality.



I would be interested in your comments on ease of use (both on the ground and in the air), learning curve / ease of set up, and if one is better suited for cross country flying.



Thanks in advance for your help!

Why not take the Vertika into account as well. In fact: I bought the Oudie light and a friend the Vertika. Both devices are very similar but if I had to make a new purchase the Vertika a a slight edge over the Oudie for the following reasons:
1. Vertika platform is just a Windows platform, making it possible to install several programs. In the Oudie case once you have choosen to install XCSoar it is not possible to return to CU. I now have a way to run CU as default and to run XCSoar from my SDcard but shutting down the device after I have run XCSoar is not straightforward. I now need to reset the device, restart in CU mode and then choose the shutdown option after pressing the power-off button. Currently the software is not designed to accomodate several pilots sharing one device with different types of software.
2. The Vertika is slightly brighter than the Oudie. Both are excellent compared to the old PDAs but the Vertika has a slight edge. It might consume more power as a consequence though. That detail I do not have.

The first reason would for me trigger the choice to Vertika; the second is nice to have but not very important.

On Monday, March 11, 2013 3:06:07 AM UTC+1, waremark wrote:
My impression is that LK8000 is even more feature rich than XCSoar, since the LK team went on developing new functionality while the XCS team were porting it to Android.

No, your subjective impression is not quite correct. The Android port has nothing to do with adding features (or not).

Both LK8000 and XCSoar have gained new features since Paolo decided to part the XCSoar team (he quit because he rejected the Android port, not because he wanted new features). Many new XCSoar features are not present in LK8000, for example:

- SkyLines live tracking (http://www.skylines-project.org/tracking/)
- show friends locations via SkyLines
- METAR/TAF
- improved reach display (shows reachability behind obstacle when there is a route around the obstacle)
- terrain avoidance suggestions (terrain route planner)
- airspace avoidance suggestions (airspace route planner)
- valid IGC file download from FLARM, Colibri, LX5000/LX7000, Nano, CAI302, ERIXX
- configuration interface for FLARM, Nano, V7, CAI302
- many more device drivers, for example K6Bt and custom pressure sensors (MSM, BMP)
- up to 6 devices can be connected, all input is merged with auto-fallback
- Bluetooth server for wireless NMEA forwarding
- FAI triangle areas obeying the 750km rule
- high-resolution terrain renderer
- kinetic panning
- live scores for more contests (Netcoupe and others)
- audio vario
- gestures
- runs on Android, Mac OS X, Linux, Raspberry Pi (plus all Windows platforms that LK8000 supports)

(That list is far from complete)

There are only few LK8000 features that have not made it into XCSoar. Mostly features that have not been considered important/useful enough by XCSoar developers/users.

Some excellent points have been made, and I
wouldn't disagree seriously with any of them,
although not everyone posting has declared their
interest. For instance most people reading this will be
aware that Max is a leading member of the XCSoar
development team, and some of us will have seen
Marco's posts on the LK8000 forum. And actually
some of the features Max mentioned are on LK (even
if they might not work the same way), and there are
also things in LK that aren't in XCSoar.

What you probably won't find here is anything from
anyone with real world experience with the latest
versions of both programs in the cockpit- if you're
satisfied with what you've got why take the trouble to
learn a new interface just to get additional features
you won't use anyway?

My own take on this (currently LK user, switched from
XCSoar at the time of the fork, as Paolo was working
with the hardware I was running at the time):

1. Hardware is key, particlularly readability in
sunlight. Availability on Android isn't an issue at least
for now if the best hardware runs Windows.


2. Whatever you run, you won't want all the features.
Just see if the features you do want are available. Or
if you are buying the hardware now, get hardware
that fits with the rest of your setup. There are
pressure sensors and devices for interfacing external
IGC sources available that work with LK software,
they just aren't all the same ones.

3. If you can read the screen, and it's telling you
what you want to know, everything else is trumped
by usability; how quickly can you see (or get to)
relevant information, and how quickly can you
recognise and assimilate it?

Of course the beauty of free software is it costs
nothing to try out either in sim mode on a PC, or
even on the actual device using Condor. And read
the manuals.

Richard Brisbourne
LK8000
Vertica V1 with Red Box Flarm as data source.

At 09:35 11 March 2013, Max Kellermann wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2013 3:06:07 AM UTC+1,
waremark wrote:
My impression is that LK8000 is even more
feature rich than XCSoar, since
the LK team went on developing new functionality
while the XCS team were
porting it to Android.

No, your subjective impression is not quite correct.
The Android port has
nothing to do with adding features (or not).

Both LK8000 and XCSoar have gained new features
since Paolo decided to part
the XCSoar team (he quit because he rejected the
Android port, not because
he wanted new features). Many new XCSoar
features are not present in
LK8000, for example:

- SkyLines live tracking (http://www.skylines-
project.org/tracking/)
- show friends locations via SkyLines
- METAR/TAF
- improved reach display (shows reachability behind
obstacle when there is
a route around the obstacle)
- terrain avoidance suggestions (terrain route
planner)
- airspace avoidance suggestions (airspace route
planner)
- valid IGC file download from FLARM, Colibri,
LX5000/LX7000, Nano, CAI302,
ERIXX
- configuration interface for FLARM, Nano, V7,
CAI302
- many more device drivers, for example K6Bt and
custom pressure sensors
(MSM, BMP)
- up to 6 devices can be connected, all input is
merged with auto-fallback
- Bluetooth server for wireless NMEA forwarding
- FAI triangle areas obeying the 750km rule
- high-resolution terrain renderer
- kinetic panning
- live scores for more contests (Netcoupe and
others)
- audio vario
- gestures
- runs on Android, Mac OS X, Linux, Raspberry Pi
(plus all Windows
platforms that LK8000 supports)

(That list is far from complete)

There are only few LK8000 features that have not
made it into XCSoar.
Mostly features that have not been considered
important/useful enough by
XCSoar developers/users.

Well of course it would be nice to add features as we did, leading the
market in terms of innovations, and at the same time be able to keep
compatibility with several platforms like XCS did.
But we could not do both things, and of course even XCS could not.
Unfortunately I cannot comment on what Max says, for two reasons.
The first, is that I dont discuss with him in public anymore.
The second, because the truth is obvious to anybody looking at a screenshot
or testing a software for 5 minutes.

But let me have a good laugh at "There are only few LK8000 features that
have not made it into XCSoar. Mostly features that have not been considered
important/useful enough by XCSoar developers/users." .
De Vulpe Et Uva .
And you also forgot to say that you copied the rest from us, haha.

I am not going also to comment about the reasons me, and now all of the rest
of the original XCS developers, abandoned Max or forked out. But there is
always a good reason why these things happen, of course.

Good software for free, for all platforms, I wish pilots to find the one
that match better their need, and their hardware !
paolo



"Max Kellermann" wrote in message
...

On Monday, March 11, 2013 3:06:07 AM UTC+1, waremark wrote:
My impression is that LK8000 is even more feature rich than XCSoar, since
the LK team went on developing new functionality while the XCS team were
porting it to Android.

No, your subjective impression is not quite correct. The Android port has
nothing to do with adding features (or not).

Both LK8000 and XCSoar have gained new features since Paolo decided to part
the XCSoar team (he quit because he rejected the Android port, not because
he wanted new features). Many new XCSoar features are not present in LK8000,
for example:

- SkyLines live tracking (http://www.skylines-project.org/tracking/)
- show friends locations via SkyLines
- METAR/TAF
- improved reach display (shows reachability behind obstacle when there is a
route around the obstacle)
- terrain avoidance suggestions (terrain route planner)
- airspace avoidance suggestions (airspace route planner)
- valid IGC file download from FLARM, Colibri, LX5000/LX7000, Nano, CAI302,
ERIXX
- configuration interface for FLARM, Nano, V7, CAI302
- many more device drivers, for example K6Bt and custom pressure sensors
(MSM, BMP)
- up to 6 devices can be connected, all input is merged with auto-fallback
- Bluetooth server for wireless NMEA forwarding
- FAI triangle areas obeying the 750km rule
- high-resolution terrain renderer
- kinetic panning
- live scores for more contests (Netcoupe and others)
- audio vario
- gestures
- runs on Android, Mac OS X, Linux, Raspberry Pi (plus all Windows platforms
that LK8000 supports)

(That list is far from complete)

There are only few LK8000 features that have not made it into XCSoar. Mostly
features that have not been considered important/useful enough by XCSoar
developers/users.

On Monday, March 11, 2013 12:07:03 PM UTC+1, pcool wrote:
I am not going also to comment about the reasons me, and now all of the rest
of the original XCS developers, abandoned Max or forked out. But there is
always a good reason why these things happen, of course.

Facts check: https://www.ohloh.net/p/compare?metr...ect_1= LK8000

Hi Marco,

I find it hard to believe that the Vertica V2 is brighter than the Oudie 2
Lite. Did you compare them in bright sunlight? If so, please provide
photos for comparison.

It is my understanding that the Oudie 2 Lite is considerably faster and has
faster screen updates than the V2.

It is easy to have both SeeYou Mobile and XCSoar installed on the Oudie 2
Lite. You can select in the settings screens which program is run
automatically at startup.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
_________________________________________

"Marco" wrote in message
...

On Sunday, March 10, 2013 3:11:53 AM UTC+1, MNLou wrote:
I am about to make my first foray into the world of soaring software.



I will, most likely, be using a Naviter Oudie Lite hooked up to a
Cambridge 302. My focus will be cross country flight (versus contest
flying) for the foreseeable future.



I have read reviews and comments about both XCSoar and LK8000. They both
appear to be fine products with excellent functionality.



I would be interested in your comments on ease of use (both on the ground
and in the air), learning curve / ease of set up, and if one is better
suited for cross country flying.



Thanks in advance for your help!

Why not take the Vertika into account as well. In fact: I bought the Oudie
light and a friend the Vertika. Both devices are very similar but if I had
to make a new purchase the Vertika a a slight edge over the Oudie for the
following reasons:
1. Vertika platform is just a Windows platform, making it possible to
install several programs. In the Oudie case once you have choosen to install
XCSoar it is not possible to return to CU. I now have a way to run CU as
default and to run XCSoar from my SDcard but shutting down the device after
I have run XCSoar is not straightforward. I now need to reset the device,
restart in CU mode and then choose the shutdown option after pressing the
power-off button. Currently the software is not designed to accomodate
several pilots sharing one device with different types of software.
2. The Vertika is slightly brighter than the Oudie. Both are excellent
compared to the old PDAs but the Vertika has a slight edge. It might consume
more power as a consequence though. That detail I do not have.

The first reason would for me trigger the choice to Vertika; the second is
nice to have but not very important.

Another piece of advice.

Ignore the incipient flame war and just look at the
software (and maybe talk to some users)