When are thermals not circular and do thermal helpers assume thatthey are?

I'm starting to think that the textbook circular thermal is primarily a flatland phenomena.

On 07/29/2013 12:00 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
I'm starting to think that the textbook circular thermal is primarily a flatland phenomena.

Not even in the flat lands - the textbook circular thermal is an
approximation!

Cheers,
Luke

On 7/29/2013 10:03 AM, Luke Szczepaniak wrote:
On 07/29/2013 12:00 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
I'm starting to think that the textbook circular thermal is primarily a
flatland phenomena.

Not even in the flat lands - the textbook circular thermal is an approximation!

Cheers,
Luke

People like Son of Flubber tick me off. He seems to have learned "circular
thermal" closely approximates an oxymoron far more quickly than I ever did. In
any event, "What Luke said!"

"Circular thermal" is a great place to start in book-learnin' terms. Reality,
on the other hand...

Bob - :-) - W.

The thermal helper in XCSoar gives a pretty good depiction of the relative
strengths around a thermal. It's definitely not circular!

I learned a long time ago to tighten up when lift falls off and ease up a
bit on the bank when the lift goes up. With practice, you'll get it and
won't need a graphical depiction of a thermal.


"BobW" wrote in message
...
On 7/29/2013 10:03 AM, Luke Szczepaniak wrote:
On 07/29/2013 12:00 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
I'm starting to think that the textbook circular thermal is primarily a
flatland phenomena.

Not even in the flat lands - the textbook circular thermal is an
approximation!

Cheers,
Luke

People like Son of Flubber tick me off. He seems to have learned "circular
thermal" closely approximates an oxymoron far more quickly than I ever
did. In any event, "What Luke said!"

"Circular thermal" is a great place to start in book-learnin' terms.
Reality, on the other hand...

Bob - :-) - W.

On Monday, July 29, 2013 10:00:11 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
I'm starting to think that the textbook circular thermal is primarily a flatland phenomena.

Most of the "Thermal Assistants" will assume circular but give a reasonable idea of the varied strength all the way around. WinPilot is the best I have used, SeeYou Mobile is about the worst. You can choose to adjust position from the values but in general seat feel will tell you more most of the time. I have not seen a nice circular and even strength thermal all the way around in months. Last Friday every thermal had multiple cores and strong centers about 50 feet across. They would also increase right until they dropped off a cliff. Level out into the stronger lift and it would increase through about 10 knots and then drop to sink instantly. I felt like a needed to go back to basic flight training again.

On Monday, July 29, 2013 5:14:01 PM UTC-7, Tim Taylor wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2013 10:00:11 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:

I'm starting to think that the textbook circular thermal is primarily a flatland phenomena.



Most of the "Thermal Assistants" will assume circular but give a reasonable idea of the varied strength all the way around. WinPilot is the best I have used, SeeYou Mobile is about the worst. You can choose to adjust position from the values but in general seat feel will tell you more most of the time. I have not seen a nice circular and even strength thermal all the way around in months. Last Friday every thermal had multiple cores and strong centers about 50 feet across. They would also increase right until they dropped off a cliff. Level out into the stronger lift and it would increase through about 10 knots and then drop to sink instantly. I felt like a needed to go back to basic flight training again.

+1 on Winpilot's thermal assistant being markedly better than the others. SYM useless, XCSoar marginal on its best days.

Thermals may not be circular, but your glider flies in a pretty good approximation of a circle. So the cylindrical graph depicted in Winpilot is all the information you can really use. XCSoar's polar graph might fool you into thinking that is the shape of the lift - but it is a polar graph of strength around a fixed radius circle, not a map of the thermal. Oh yeah they are different!

Tim were you flying the Tahoe/Minden/Truckee area? Last weekend the thermals were diabolical.

On Monday, July 29, 2013 9:00:11 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
I'm starting to think that the textbook circular thermal is primarily a flatland phenomena.

I find that the SeeYou Thermal assistant works very well. Why don't you think it works. The manual on page 30-31 of the Oudie manual explains how it works

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

On Monday, July 29, 2013 7:44:44 PM UTC-6, Richard wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2013 9:00:11 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:

I'm starting to think that the textbook circular thermal is primarily a flatland phenomena.



I find that the SeeYou Thermal assistant works very well. Why don't you think it works. The manual on page 30-31 of the Oudie manual explains how it works



Richard

www.craggyaero.com

Jon, I was flying in Northern UT, Idaho and Wyoming but it sounds like the same air mass. I did get a god OLC score on 7/26 but it had nothing to do with my thermalling ability.

Richard,

SYM just doesn't seem to work well. I have read the manuals and tried many different settings. Here are a few observations:

1. The interface is not as intuitive and easy to understand as WP. I have tried both type of displays and neither is great. I use the circle system most of the time now. I wish the circle diameter was constant rather than relative to each other. WP graphic is so much better on a 1 to 10 scale the WP is a 9 and the SYM is about a 4.

2. The timing appear to be off by about 30 or more degrees with SYM. Very often if you open up in the direction of what should be stronger it is not correct.

3. The timing of it turning on and off is random at best and frustrating at worst. It usually takes two or three full turns to come on and sometimes longer. Those first few turns are when you need it the most. WP would come on about 90 to 120 degrees into a turn. SYM tends to come on when you are finally cored and don't need it as much. It also comes and goes randomly when still in a thermal.

4. You can not toggle it on and off easily. With WP I had a button to push to turn it off if I was thermalling and wanted to see other information. With SYM I added the button to the menu bar but is does not work well. It will turn off the Thermal circles graphic but leave you in the thermal window.

5. SYM lacks the thermal strength versus time graph. This is extremely useful to determine how you are doing over time and the shape of the curve helps to determine if you need to adjust the circle.

6. In weak conditions where you are looking for very small amounts of lift SYM is correct on the direction about 50% of the time, WP was more like 90%..

SYM has many strengths but the TM is not one of them. I wish they would listen to users and improve it to something close to what WP has. Just offer a WP like TM page for those that want it. On the flipside I wish WP would listen to users and fix the known issues rather than chasing iPhone apps that can not be seen in a cockpit. Too bad neither seem to care about making the best possible product. No real hard things to fix for either company..

TT

On Monday, July 29, 2013 7:44:44 PM UTC-6, Richard wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2013 9:00:11 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:

I'm starting to think that the textbook circular thermal is primarily a flatland phenomena.



I find that the SeeYou Thermal assistant works very well. Why don't you think it works. The manual on page 30-31 of the Oudie manual explains how it works



Richard

www.craggyaero.com

Jon, I was flying in Northern UT, Idaho and Wyoming but it sounds like the same air mass. I did get a good OLC score on 7/26 but it had nothing to do with my thermalling ability.

Richard,

SYM just doesn't seem to work well. I have read the manuals and tried many different settings. Here are a few observations:

1. The interface is not as intuitive and easy to understand as WP. I have tried both type of displays in STM and neither is great. I use the circle system most of the time now. I wish the circle diameter was constant rather than relative to each other. WP graphic is so much better on a 1 to 10 scale the WP is a 9 and the SYM is about a 4.

2. The timing appear to be off by about 30 or more degrees with SYM. Very often if you open up in the direction of what should be stronger it is not correct.

3. The timing of it turning on and off is random at best and frustrating at worst. It usually takes two or three full turns to come on and sometimes longer. Those first few turns are when you need it the most. WP would come on about 90 to 120 degrees into a turn. SYM tends to come on when you are finally cored and don't need it as much. It also comes and goes randomly when still in a thermal.

4. You can not toggle it on and off easily. With WP I had a button to push to turn it off if I was thermalling and wanted to see other information. With SYM I added the button to the menu bar but is does not work well. It will turn off the Thermal circles graphic but leave you in the thermal window.

5. SYM lacks the thermal strength versus time graph. This is extremely useful to determine how you are doing over time and the shape of the curve helps to determine if you need to adjust the circle.

6. In weak conditions where you are looking for very small amounts of lift SYM is correct on the direction about 50% of the time, WP was more like 90%..

SYM has many strengths but the Thermal Assistant is not one of them. I wish they would listen to users and improve it to something close to what WP has. Just offer a WP like TM page for those that want it. On the flipside I wish WP would listen to users and fix the known issues rather than chasing iPhone apps that can not be seen in a cockpit. Too bad neither seem to care about making the best possible product. No real hard things to fix for either company.

TT

On Monday, July 29, 2013 7:48:05 PM UTC-7, Tim Taylor wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2013 7:44:44 PM UTC-6, Richard wrote:

On Monday, July 29, 2013 9:00:11 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:



I'm starting to think that the textbook circular thermal is primarily a flatland phenomena.







I find that the SeeYou Thermal assistant works very well. Why don't you think it works. The manual on page 30-31 of the Oudie manual explains how it works







Richard



www.craggyaero.com



Jon, I was flying in Northern UT, Idaho and Wyoming but it sounds like the same air mass. I did get a good OLC score on 7/26 but it had nothing to do with my thermalling ability.



Richard,



SYM just doesn't seem to work well. I have read the manuals and tried many different settings. Here are a few observations:



1. The interface is not as intuitive and easy to understand as WP. I have tried both type of displays in STM and neither is great. I use the circle system most of the time now. I wish the circle diameter was constant rather than relative to each other. WP graphic is so much better on a 1 to 10 scale the WP is a 9 and the SYM is about a 4.



2. The timing appear to be off by about 30 or more degrees with SYM. Very often if you open up in the direction of what should be stronger it is not correct.



3. The timing of it turning on and off is random at best and frustrating at worst. It usually takes two or three full turns to come on and sometimes longer. Those first few turns are when you need it the most. WP would come on about 90 to 120 degrees into a turn. SYM tends to come on when you are finally cored and don't need it as much. It also comes and goes randomly when still in a thermal.



4. You can not toggle it on and off easily. With WP I had a button to push to turn it off if I was thermalling and wanted to see other information. With SYM I added the button to the menu bar but is does not work well. It will turn off the Thermal circles graphic but leave you in the thermal window.



5. SYM lacks the thermal strength versus time graph. This is extremely useful to determine how you are doing over time and the shape of the curve helps to determine if you need to adjust the circle.



6. In weak conditions where you are looking for very small amounts of lift SYM is correct on the direction about 50% of the time, WP was more like 90%.



SYM has many strengths but the Thermal Assistant is not one of them. I wish they would listen to users and improve it to something close to what WP has. Just offer a WP like TM page for those that want it. On the flipside I wish WP would listen to users and fix the known issues rather than chasing iPhone apps that can not be seen in a cockpit. Too bad neither seem to care about making the best possible product. No real hard things to fix for either company.



TT

Pretty much what he said. I would add that the depiction of all Flarm contacts, with associated information on the Thermal Assistant page is at the very least entertaining and very good for situational awareness.