what would you do?

I have to make a decision that could have a big impact on a fellow pilot
and I would appreciate knowing what you would do in my situation - Here
are the basic facts:
Today I, along with a pilot passenger (witness) went to a fly-in - lots
of planes arriving in short time frame.
Active runway was 14, lh downwind, circuit height 3000 ft.
We called 5 miles out (procedure) and received a response from another
pilot "Joining 17 in 2 minutes".
I responded, "are you arriving xxx airport - there is no 17"
Response - "sorry I meant 35".
I reply, there is no 35 - the runways are 14 and 32. 14 is active,
downwind is lh, circuit is 3000 ft.
Response - circling over 35 losing altitude.
Me - I am approaching threshold of 32 at 3000ft to join downwind left
14. There is no 35 and you should not be descending over the runway.
Response - I am at 5500 descending for 35.
Me - I repeat this airport is 14 and 32 - circuit height is 3000 ft. We
are about to cross midfield to join downwind left 14.
Response - Sorry I meant 32 - I am on downwind left 32.
(32 if it was active - is downwind right)
Me - You are on head on collision course with me- I am in immediate
emergency descent and crossing to midfield (no choice - mountains in
other direction)
Response - Well - I'm trying to land here! Huh?
Me - XXX Radio - are you guys listening to this? I could really use your
help here right now (I admit - I got VERY rattled)
XXX Radio - Errr aircraft xxx active is downwind left 14.
So I land.
And then this plane comes in and bounces nose wheel to mains - 4 or 5
times.
So I'm out of the plane and I meet a friend who arrived before me. And
that was when I found out that our radio calls had been broadcast via
loudspeakers to over 1000 spectators.
And my friend said, "I am really embarrassed about this, because I have
been trying to help this pilot (who has a PPL and over 100 hours) but
she is totally clueless.
So the pilot now taxis next to my friends aircraft , taxis into the
grass/soft dirt - gets stuck trying to turn, applys FULL power and
sprays the side of my friends aircraft with dirt & stones - and keeps
doing it - because she is so clueless she doesn't know what she is doing.
Moving forward - I watched her depart.
Radio at taxiway - Aircraft calling on final - which airport are you
landing at - I kid you not.
Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
He lands.
Another aircraft calls final 14 xxx
Response - Aircraft on final - which airport are you landing at?
Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
And yet another aircraft calls final.
"Listen - I'm waiting to take off here"
He lands.
She has about 8 aircraft behind her.
Now she does her runup.
Her call - XXX taking off. (No runway - just taking off).
Of the approx 500 aircraft that took off here today, this was the ONLY
one that didn't backtrack.
With nosewheel up way to soon for density altitude she took off, stall
horn wailing as she skimmed the trees and departed for home.
Would you report her - or would you forget it?
I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her,
I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week.
What would you do?
Thanks
Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument
Cessna 172H C-GICE

"tony roberts" wrote in message
news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004@shawnews...
I have to make a decision that could have a big impact on a fellow pilot
and I would appreciate knowing what you would do in my situation

snip

I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her,
I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week.
What would you do?
Thanks
Tony

If I could find her I might send her a private email, or even a phone call
diplomatically (is such a thing possible?) suggesting remedial radio and
pattern work. But in all likelihood I would do nothing. You have no reason
to feel bad, other than the standard response to any accident, if she
crashes next week - she is a pilot, she has to take responsibility for
herself.

"tony roberts" wrote in message
news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004@shawnews...
[...]
Would you report her - or would you forget it?
I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her,
I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week.
What would you do?

I'm not sure I'm entirely clear on your narrative. It looked like from what
you wrote that you know someone who personally knows the pilot you're asking
about. Is that right?

If so, I'd say the first step is to try to work through your friend to find
out what the deal is with this pilot, and whether she understands what a
hazard she is. That she would attempt to participate in such a crowded
situation with so few hours, and with so little in the way of basic piloting
skills seems very strange, unless she is completely oblivious to her own
limitations.

If you've ascertained that she is unable to understand that she needs more
training and more experience, or you are unable to make contact with the
pilot, then I'd say that the local FSDO is your only option, should you want
to do something.

The question of whether you should depends on your own ethics..."Michael"
obviously feels it's none of your concern. I disagree...as I've said before
in similar situations, if you could be sure the only person she'd kill was
herself, then it's an issue between her and her maker. But you can't be
sure of that, can you? She may kill a passenger (or more than one), and she
may kill people not in her airplane.

Me? I'd report her. I've been called a "tattle-tale" countless ways by
now, by people who would rather die than improve the safety record, and I'm
used to it. Be aware that plenty of people will disapprove of you if you do
tell.

But ultimately, only you can decide what the right course of action is for
you to take.

At the very least though, you ought to file an ASRS report. This was
clearly a hazardous situation, in which a single pilot managed to disrupt a
busy fly-in, and it's the sort of thing that belongs in NASA's database.

Pete

You should call the FSDO. If your description is accurate, this person
shouldn't be flying.

Mike
MU-2

"tony roberts" wrote in message
news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004@shawnews...
I have to make a decision that could have a big impact on a fellow pilot
and I would appreciate knowing what you would do in my situation - Here
are the basic facts:
Today I, along with a pilot passenger (witness) went to a fly-in - lots
of planes arriving in short time frame.
Active runway was 14, lh downwind, circuit height 3000 ft.
We called 5 miles out (procedure) and received a response from another
pilot "Joining 17 in 2 minutes".
I responded, "are you arriving xxx airport - there is no 17"
Response - "sorry I meant 35".
I reply, there is no 35 - the runways are 14 and 32. 14 is active,
downwind is lh, circuit is 3000 ft.
Response - circling over 35 losing altitude.
Me - I am approaching threshold of 32 at 3000ft to join downwind left
14. There is no 35 and you should not be descending over the runway.
Response - I am at 5500 descending for 35.
Me - I repeat this airport is 14 and 32 - circuit height is 3000 ft. We
are about to cross midfield to join downwind left 14.
Response - Sorry I meant 32 - I am on downwind left 32.
(32 if it was active - is downwind right)
Me - You are on head on collision course with me- I am in immediate
emergency descent and crossing to midfield (no choice - mountains in
other direction)
Response - Well - I'm trying to land here! Huh?
Me - XXX Radio - are you guys listening to this? I could really use your
help here right now (I admit - I got VERY rattled)
XXX Radio - Errr aircraft xxx active is downwind left 14.
So I land.
And then this plane comes in and bounces nose wheel to mains - 4 or 5
times.
So I'm out of the plane and I meet a friend who arrived before me. And
that was when I found out that our radio calls had been broadcast via
loudspeakers to over 1000 spectators.
And my friend said, "I am really embarrassed about this, because I have
been trying to help this pilot (who has a PPL and over 100 hours) but
she is totally clueless.
So the pilot now taxis next to my friends aircraft , taxis into the
grass/soft dirt - gets stuck trying to turn, applys FULL power and
sprays the side of my friends aircraft with dirt & stones - and keeps
doing it - because she is so clueless she doesn't know what she is doing.
Moving forward - I watched her depart.
Radio at taxiway - Aircraft calling on final - which airport are you
landing at - I kid you not.
Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
He lands.
Another aircraft calls final 14 xxx
Response - Aircraft on final - which airport are you landing at?
Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
And yet another aircraft calls final.
"Listen - I'm waiting to take off here"
He lands.
She has about 8 aircraft behind her.
Now she does her runup.
Her call - XXX taking off. (No runway - just taking off).
Of the approx 500 aircraft that took off here today, this was the ONLY
one that didn't backtrack.
With nosewheel up way to soon for density altitude she took off, stall
horn wailing as she skimmed the trees and departed for home.
Would you report her - or would you forget it?
I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her,
I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week.
What would you do?
Thanks
Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument
Cessna 172H C-GICE

tony roberts wrote in news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004
@shawnews:

What would you do?
Thanks
Tony


Im a new pilot here but with what I have been taught in the past and
reading what you wrote....

I would have socked her right in the mouth the moment she stepped out of
her plane.

I then would have cut her tire so that the idiot couldnt take off again..

but thats just me with 16 hours in a plane and a lifetime of dealing with
idiots :-)

How do you know her stall horn was wailing? Why did you fly a right
downwind for 14, then make a right turn to cross midfield for a left
downwind for 14.

"tony roberts" wrote in message
news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004@shawnews...
I have to make a decision that could have a big impact on a fellow pilot
and I would appreciate knowing what you would do in my situation - Here
are the basic facts:
Today I, along with a pilot passenger (witness) went to a fly-in - lots
of planes arriving in short time frame.
Active runway was 14, lh downwind, circuit height 3000 ft.
We called 5 miles out (procedure) and received a response from another
pilot "Joining 17 in 2 minutes".
I responded, "are you arriving xxx airport - there is no 17"
Response - "sorry I meant 35".
I reply, there is no 35 - the runways are 14 and 32. 14 is active,
downwind is lh, circuit is 3000 ft.
Response - circling over 35 losing altitude.
Me - I am approaching threshold of 32 at 3000ft to join downwind left
14. There is no 35 and you should not be descending over the runway.
Response - I am at 5500 descending for 35.
Me - I repeat this airport is 14 and 32 - circuit height is 3000 ft. We
are about to cross midfield to join downwind left 14.
Response - Sorry I meant 32 - I am on downwind left 32.
(32 if it was active - is downwind right)
Me - You are on head on collision course with me- I am in immediate
emergency descent and crossing to midfield (no choice - mountains in
other direction)
Response - Well - I'm trying to land here! Huh?
Me - XXX Radio - are you guys listening to this? I could really use your
help here right now (I admit - I got VERY rattled)
XXX Radio - Errr aircraft xxx active is downwind left 14.
So I land.
And then this plane comes in and bounces nose wheel to mains - 4 or 5
times.
So I'm out of the plane and I meet a friend who arrived before me. And
that was when I found out that our radio calls had been broadcast via
loudspeakers to over 1000 spectators.
And my friend said, "I am really embarrassed about this, because I have
been trying to help this pilot (who has a PPL and over 100 hours) but
she is totally clueless.
So the pilot now taxis next to my friends aircraft , taxis into the
grass/soft dirt - gets stuck trying to turn, applys FULL power and
sprays the side of my friends aircraft with dirt & stones - and keeps
doing it - because she is so clueless she doesn't know what she is doing.
Moving forward - I watched her depart.
Radio at taxiway - Aircraft calling on final - which airport are you
landing at - I kid you not.
Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
He lands.
Another aircraft calls final 14 xxx
Response - Aircraft on final - which airport are you landing at?
Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
And yet another aircraft calls final.
"Listen - I'm waiting to take off here"
He lands.
She has about 8 aircraft behind her.
Now she does her runup.
Her call - XXX taking off. (No runway - just taking off).
Of the approx 500 aircraft that took off here today, this was the ONLY
one that didn't backtrack.
With nosewheel up way to soon for density altitude she took off, stall
horn wailing as she skimmed the trees and departed for home.
Would you report her - or would you forget it?
I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her,
I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week.
What would you do?
Thanks
Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument
Cessna 172H C-GICE

Report her. She might not deserve the favor, and she might not appreciate
it, but it might be the best thing you could do for her, any passengers she
might carry, and the safety of GA as a whole.

-c

"tony roberts" wrote in message
news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004@shawnews...
I have to make a decision that could have a big impact on a fellow pilot
and I would appreciate knowing what you would do in my situation - Here
are the basic facts:
Today I, along with a pilot passenger (witness) went to a fly-in - lots
of planes arriving in short time frame.
Active runway was 14, lh downwind, circuit height 3000 ft.
We called 5 miles out (procedure) and received a response from another
pilot "Joining 17 in 2 minutes".
I responded, "are you arriving xxx airport - there is no 17"
Response - "sorry I meant 35".
I reply, there is no 35 - the runways are 14 and 32. 14 is active,
downwind is lh, circuit is 3000 ft.
Response - circling over 35 losing altitude.
Me - I am approaching threshold of 32 at 3000ft to join downwind left
14. There is no 35 and you should not be descending over the runway.
Response - I am at 5500 descending for 35.
Me - I repeat this airport is 14 and 32 - circuit height is 3000 ft. We
are about to cross midfield to join downwind left 14.
Response - Sorry I meant 32 - I am on downwind left 32.
(32 if it was active - is downwind right)
Me - You are on head on collision course with me- I am in immediate
emergency descent and crossing to midfield (no choice - mountains in
other direction)
Response - Well - I'm trying to land here! Huh?
Me - XXX Radio - are you guys listening to this? I could really use your
help here right now (I admit - I got VERY rattled)
XXX Radio - Errr aircraft xxx active is downwind left 14.
So I land.
And then this plane comes in and bounces nose wheel to mains - 4 or 5
times.
So I'm out of the plane and I meet a friend who arrived before me. And
that was when I found out that our radio calls had been broadcast via
loudspeakers to over 1000 spectators.
And my friend said, "I am really embarrassed about this, because I have
been trying to help this pilot (who has a PPL and over 100 hours) but
she is totally clueless.
So the pilot now taxis next to my friends aircraft , taxis into the
grass/soft dirt - gets stuck trying to turn, applys FULL power and
sprays the side of my friends aircraft with dirt & stones - and keeps
doing it - because she is so clueless she doesn't know what she is doing.
Moving forward - I watched her depart.
Radio at taxiway - Aircraft calling on final - which airport are you
landing at - I kid you not.
Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
He lands.
Another aircraft calls final 14 xxx
Response - Aircraft on final - which airport are you landing at?
Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
And yet another aircraft calls final.
"Listen - I'm waiting to take off here"
He lands.
She has about 8 aircraft behind her.
Now she does her runup.
Her call - XXX taking off. (No runway - just taking off).
Of the approx 500 aircraft that took off here today, this was the ONLY
one that didn't backtrack.
With nosewheel up way to soon for density altitude she took off, stall
horn wailing as she skimmed the trees and departed for home.
Would you report her - or would you forget it?
I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her,
I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week.
What would you do?
Thanks
Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument
Cessna 172H C-GICE

What does "report her" mean? Why should the FSDO care what I say when I
"report" a fellow pilot? Is there a procedure for this? I don't know - I
just don't like the idea that an overly officious fellow pilot would decide
to "report me" if they were unhappy with my piloting. A few weeks ago I was
accosted on the ramp by a pilot who was upset that I used too much runway in
my landing and caused him to go around. (I didn't say anything, but I kind
of wondered why he was following me so closely around the pattern.) The jerk
was yelling at me that if I couldn't land shorter than that I shouldn't be
landing at "his" airport. I can just picture him "reporting" me, and having
to deal with a FSDO investigation or some such thing.

Michael



"gatt" wrote in message
...

Report her. She might not deserve the favor, and she might not appreciate
it, but it might be the best thing you could do for her, any passengers
she
might carry, and the safety of GA as a whole.

-c

\

tony roberts wrote:

Me - You are on head on collision course with me-

If you're both in LH downwinds for opposing runways, then - at least during
the downwind - you're well clear of one another. Crossing midfield for the
RH pattern while the other pilot is in LH for opposing runway is exactly
the wrong thing to do.

- Andrew

"Michael 182" wrote in message
news:cwGBc.70661$Hg2.7085@attbi_s04...
What does "report her" mean? Why should the FSDO care what I say when I
"report" a fellow pilot?

They are the ones in charge of enforcing the FARs.

Is there a procedure for this?

Pick up the phone, dial the number, tell them what you saw and heard.

I don't know - I
just don't like the idea that an overly officious fellow pilot would
decide
to "report me" if they were unhappy with my piloting.

Me either. But still, what else are you going to do?

How do you feel about calling the police if someone breaks into your house?
I mean, you wouldn't want YOUR neighbor calling the police tell them YOU
broke into THEIR house, would you? By your logic, you ought to just ignore
the guy breaking into your own house.

[...] I can just picture him "reporting" me, and having
to deal with a FSDO investigation or some such thing.

Had he reported you, I doubt anything of substance would have happened. In
any case, you can always sue him for slander.

Pete