Aviation crash videos on-line

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:I8k_c.116580$Fg5.83066@attbi_s53...

What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes for
reasons
other than flight safety?

I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of viewing
aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than I
require you justify yourself to me.
I'm not demanding that people stop watching crash videos put on the net
.. I have merely commented on how I personally, view the practice.
What you and others watch and enjoy watching is your business, as is
what you feel you are "learning" from the experience; and you can do it
without demanding I justify "precisely" my feelings on the matter for
you.

I have simply stated my disgust with those who find this type of thing
"entertaining" from the viewing standpoint, and my disgust for those who
take these pictures and show them in public outside the flight safety
context as a "hobby", which is what has been done in this instance. I
base these feelings on a lifetime of airshow demonstration and flight
safety exposure. You and others as well of course have your own
perspective whatever that might be.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

It's all the cross posting

"Aviv Hod" wrote in
message ...
Doug FM wrote:
And the site is down after one day, that's gotta be some sort of record




Ever hear of the "Slashdot effect?" When a link makes it to the front
page of a popular website like slashdot.org , the web server of the
relevant page has a tendancy to start combusting into a huge puff of
vaporized silicon :-) They can take down a website in minutes... I was
surprised that all those videos didn't take down the server earlier.

-Aviv

US tax dollars at work and play

but also shows the risk and sacrifice of eternal diligence in the defense of
freedom

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:I8k_c.116580$Fg5.83066@attbi_s53...
No...you're not the least bit interested in flight safety, and you'll
never sell that line to me in a million years.

What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes for
reasons
other than flight safety?

Humans are fascinated with video-taped accidents of ALL kinds, simply
because they are so rare. The ability to capture an accident on video,
for
later viewing, is one of the true marvels of the last 100 years.

Personally, I view aviation videos for the thrill, as well as for any
"flight safety" aspects I may glean from them. Quite frankly, the odds of
my obtaining any useful information from watching an F-4 bolt over the
side
of an aircraft carrier are almost nil -- but that doesn't make watching
the
video any less fascinating.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"SelwayKid" wrote in message
om...
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...
"SelwayKid" wrote in message
om...
"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...
Dear aviation enthusiast,

Over the years we have collected loads of spectacular video footage.
This
includes about 100 video clips with aviation mishaps, accidents and
crashes.
Today we have opened http://www.dappa.nl/crash.htm which shows the
first 15
videos. More videos will follow soon, so keep checking for updates !

Best regards,

Iwan Bogels & Tieme Festner
DAPPA

I visited the site and hope to see more of the clips. I find them to
be of instructional value in accident prevention. There are clips I
have seen in the past and have not been able to find since. Hopefully
they will be available with your research and efforts.
R. Kemp CFII/RAM

These people are in no way whatsoever even remotely involved with
aviation flight safety. By their own word, they exist solely for the
purpose of enhancing their "hobby" of aviation photography. A crash to
them is nothing more than an opportunity to record the sensationalism
involved which is exactly what they are doing on their web site.
I see not ONE publication on their site that could be linked to the
subject of flight safety.
I suggest that if you want to view crash photography that IS related to
flight safety, you purchase a copy of "Zero Error Margin" by Gen Des
Barker, a book on air safety that weighs 7 pounds and is the complete


snip....
Hey Dudley
Thats cool if we disagree. However, reading a 7 pound book takes a lot
longer than seeing some of the clips. It doesn't matter to me how or
why the clips were obtained unless they engineered the
accidents/incidents purely for prurient interest. The fact remains the
accidents/incidents happened and were captured on film, then gathered
in one place for those of us who don't have time or desire to wade
through any 7# book. Like you, I've been involved in aviation for
about 50 years. We've exchanged credentials and I think have mutual
respect for them so its a matter of personal opinion based on our
personal experiences.
The fact that so many people want to see these clips, regardless of
their personal reasons or motivations indicates a tremendous interest.
The clips work far better than trying to replicate them on a
blackboard or with hand gestures. I feel they are a great training
aid.
Best professional regards
R. Kemp
and definitive account of the air safety issues involved with many of
the videos and photographs these two people are putting up for viewing
on their site without any reference at all to the flight safety issue.
I've been involved directly with flight safety issues for fifty years
and am in fact deeply involved with Gen Barker's book on airshow safety.
I know the people involved in the safety business, and these two are NOT
pushing flight safety!
Please understand I have no problem with you having an opposing opinion
about what these people are presenting. I just don't agree with you.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

like you guys to take this off USENET though

"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...

like you guys to take this off USENET though

Suggestion;
Take out the cross posting as I have done to eliminate all but the 2
groups I want to use for this issue, then simply resist the temptation
to hit the send key with a Usenet police post like this one.
Works wonders!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

Nah, drudgereport knocked over newscientist.com earlier this week with the
seti announcement long before it got /.ed

This site didn't get knocked over, they did it to themselves by cross
posting something that invokes a look and much curiousity without
understanding this web business. Now they can't afford the freight.
Bandwidth is not free.


"Doug FM" wrote in message
le.rogers.com...
And the site is down after one day, that's gotta be some sort of record


"Iwan Bogels" wrote in message
...
Dear aviation enthusiast,

Over the years we have collected loads of spectacular video footage.
This
includes about 100 video clips with aviation mishaps, accidents and
crashes.
Today we have opened http://www.dappa.nl/crash.htm which shows the first
15
videos. More videos will follow soon, so keep checking for updates !

Best regards,

Iwan Bogels & Tieme Festner
DAPPA

What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes for
reasons
other than flight safety?

I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of viewing
aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than I
require you justify yourself to me.

Actually, I was just curious as to your reasoning.

I don't pretend to understand *why* viewing vehicle crashes is entertaining
to the masses -- but it clearly is. Evidence of this is clearly seen by the
success of NASCAR (now the number one sport in the world, based on
attendance), or the popularity of "demolition derbies" at any of hundreds of
county fairgrounds across America.

Further evidence can be seen by the proliferation of "America's Worst Police
Chases"-type of programming. These police videos -- many of them depicting
auto wrecks and gunfights -- are hugely popular.

It's a peculiar phenomenon, I'll give you that -- but to "detest people like
that" is to despise a huge percentage of Americans.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:zem_c.101871$9d6.78381@attbi_s54...
What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes
for
reasons
other than flight safety?

I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of
viewing
aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than I
require you justify yourself to me.

Actually, I was just curious as to your reasoning.

I don't pretend to understand *why* viewing vehicle crashes is
entertaining
to the masses -- but it clearly is. Evidence of this is clearly seen
by the
success of NASCAR (now the number one sport in the world, based on
attendance), or the popularity of "demolition derbies" at any of
hundreds of
county fairgrounds across America.

Further evidence can be seen by the proliferation of "America's Worst
Police
Chases"-type of programming. These police videos -- many of them
depicting
auto wrecks and gunfights -- are hugely popular.

It's a peculiar phenomenon, I'll give you that -- but to "detest
people like
that" is to despise a huge percentage of Americans.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

You are injecting oranges into an apples discussing here.
the issue of whether or not crashes are entertaining to the masses is a
whole different issue than the ethics of putting crash video out on the
net for entertainment or to project one's "hobby".
You are simply going off topic and stating a possible reason for WHY
people might find crash video exciting and entertaining. Then you are
backing this up by telling me that YOU find these crash videos
"thrilling".
Thrilling isn't the issue here. Ethics is the issue, or more correctly,
the lack of ethics.
I would not argue that crash footage isn't "thrilling". I would argue
however, that those who engage in both providing such footage on the net
for general viewing , and viewing such footage for the purpose of the
"thrill" involved, and trying to pass their prurient interest off as
being associated with flight safety are not my kind of people.
Crash footage has a real and genuine use as a flight safety tool, and
presented in the correct context, BY PEOPLE IN THE SAFETY BUSINESS,
crash photography is welcomed by the safety community and the aviation
community at large. There is much to be learned from crash footage
presented in this manner.
But don't tell me above all people that some photographer out there
presenting his "wares" on the net that consist of gigs of crash video
that he clearly states is his "hobby" has been presented as a public
service or in a safety associated context. That's just plain bull ****!
These people are engaged in enhancing their images within their
community...that's it....that's all......nothing more than that. What's
important to them is the film speed.....the equipment used.......and
yes; the sheer excitement of the event itself...the more dramatic the
event, the more kudos for the photographer.
Don't try selling ME this crap as a safety issue. I know better. I stood
at the crash site of a close friend during the Cape May Air Races in 71.
His body was still in the cockpit of his AT6 crushed like a dishrag. I
held his wife in my arms as she tried hysterically to break away and
climb in the cockpit with her husband. I can still feel her shaking and
screaming to this day. I watched as a spectator....one of these
"photographers" we're discussing here....ran over to where we were
standing and took a picture, not of the wreck, but of HER!!!!
Crash video has a distinct place in our lives as pilots. We can learn
from it if it's presented in the proper context, but to allow ourselves
to be witness to a human tragedy for no other purpose than to enjoy our
"hobby" or satisfy our desire for excitement is not my idea of ethical
behavior.
BTW, in closing...that pilot friend's widow, I'll just call her Jere ,
remained a lifelong friend of ours. We finally lost her several years
ago to a stroke. We miss her very much.
Somewhere on this planet, a complete stranger, a person with a camera
who didn't know her, and could have cared less about her, has a picture
he took without her permission, at the most horrible and personal moment
of her life,that allows him to share that moment in time with her.
I hope he chokes on it!
And this is just ONE instance of many I've experienced through the years
concerning "crash photographers with a "hobby"!!!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

I love WTC crash pictures!

Dudley Henriques wrote:
"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:zem_c.101871$9d6.78381@attbi_s54...

What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes

for

reasons

other than flight safety?

I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of

viewing

aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than I
require you justify yourself to me.

Actually, I was just curious as to your reasoning.

I don't pretend to understand *why* viewing vehicle crashes is

entertaining

to the masses -- but it clearly is. Evidence of this is clearly seen

by the

success of NASCAR (now the number one sport in the world, based on
attendance), or the popularity of "demolition derbies" at any of

hundreds of

county fairgrounds across America.

Further evidence can be seen by the proliferation of "America's Worst

Police

Chases"-type of programming. These police videos -- many of them

depicting

auto wrecks and gunfights -- are hugely popular.

It's a peculiar phenomenon, I'll give you that -- but to "detest

people like

that" is to despise a huge percentage of Americans.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


You are injecting oranges into an apples discussing here.
the issue of whether or not crashes are entertaining to the masses is a
whole different issue than the ethics of putting crash video out on the
net for entertainment or to project one's "hobby".
You are simply going off topic and stating a possible reason for WHY
people might find crash video exciting and entertaining. Then you are
backing this up by telling me that YOU find these crash videos
"thrilling".
Thrilling isn't the issue here. Ethics is the issue, or more correctly,
the lack of ethics.
I would not argue that crash footage isn't "thrilling". I would argue
however, that those who engage in both providing such footage on the net
for general viewing , and viewing such footage for the purpose of the
"thrill" involved, and trying to pass their prurient interest off as
being associated with flight safety are not my kind of people.
Crash footage has a real and genuine use as a flight safety tool, and
presented in the correct context, BY PEOPLE IN THE SAFETY BUSINESS,
crash photography is welcomed by the safety community and the aviation
community at large. There is much to be learned from crash footage
presented in this manner.
But don't tell me above all people that some photographer out there
presenting his "wares" on the net that consist of gigs of crash video
that he clearly states is his "hobby" has been presented as a public
service or in a safety associated context. That's just plain bull ****!
These people are engaged in enhancing their images within their
community...that's it....that's all......nothing more than that. What's
important to them is the film speed.....the equipment used.......and
yes; the sheer excitement of the event itself...the more dramatic the
event, the more kudos for the photographer.
Don't try selling ME this crap as a safety issue. I know better. I stood
at the crash site of a close friend during the Cape May Air Races in 71.
His body was still in the cockpit of his AT6 crushed like a dishrag. I
held his wife in my arms as she tried hysterically to break away and
climb in the cockpit with her husband. I can still feel her shaking and
screaming to this day. I watched as a spectator....one of these
"photographers" we're discussing here....ran over to where we were
standing and took a picture, not of the wreck, but of HER!!!!
Crash video has a distinct place in our lives as pilots. We can learn
from it if it's presented in the proper context, but to allow ourselves
to be witness to a human tragedy for no other purpose than to enjoy our
"hobby" or satisfy our desire for excitement is not my idea of ethical
behavior.
BTW, in closing...that pilot friend's widow, I'll just call her Jere ,
remained a lifelong friend of ours. We finally lost her several years
ago to a stroke. We miss her very much.
Somewhere on this planet, a complete stranger, a person with a camera
who didn't know her, and could have cared less about her, has a picture
he took without her permission, at the most horrible and personal moment
of her life,that allows him to share that moment in time with her.
I hope he chokes on it!
And this is just ONE instance of many I've experienced through the years
concerning "crash photographers with a "hobby"!!!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

"wse" wrote in message ...
I love WTC crash pictures!


Of course you do dear, all top posting trolls-in-training do.

Now give mommy her computer back and run along. The cat needs to be set
afire.

Richard