It all depends on what the definition of "cloud" is...

I'm clear on how far away I have to stay from clouds during VFR flight, and
I thought I knew a cloud when I saw one, but...

I took my brother-in-law up for his birthday yesterday morning. It was
pretty darn cool for late August, and all the river valleys were filled with
fog. In fact, several nearby fields were reporting near zero visibilities.
But my home airport, which sits on the top of a hill, was reporting sky
clear and visibility greater than 10 miles. He wasn't interested in seeing
anything special, so we just took off, did a quick turn around the city, and
came back into the pattern for a few touch and goes.

The tower cleared us straight in for the first one. As I entered downwind
for the next one, though, they told me to extend my downwind and that I was
#2 behind a Citation on an 8 mile final. This normally wouldn't be a big
deal at all, but the downwind leg that I was on passes directly over a steel
plant, which (like most steel mils) sits right along a river. All of the
natural fog from the river itself was safely down in the valley, well below
the airport. But the steel plant was throwing up this huge amount of vapor
which extended well above pattern altitude.

I'm guessing this counts as a "cloud", right? I mean, I couldn't see
through it. I don't know what the visibility would have been like inside of
it, and I'm fairly sure that I would have been through it and out the other
side in a matter of seconds, but it seemed to me that I should stay clear of
it. I reduced my speed a bit to keep my extended downwind from getting too
close to the steel mill, and began to think of a plan that would keep the
tower happy and me in legal VFR conditions. I was just about to ask to do a
360 in place when the Citation came over the numbers and the tower cleared
me to turn base.

At that point, I asked to switch from touch-and-go to full stop, mostly
because I didn't want to get caught facing that vapor cloud again. In
hidsight, I suppose I could have asked to fly right traffic instead of left.
There was nobody else in the pattern, and I don't think the tower
controllers would have cared. But I didn't think of that at the time, and I
wasn't convinced that I could stay legal if someone in authority decided
that pillar of vapor coming from the steel plant constituted a "cloud". So
I just landed and cut the flight short.

So was it a cloud or not?


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004

It's a cloud.

It's really just as simple as deciding how you will stay outside of it, do
it, and inform the tower. If they are giving you instructions that take you
thru the cloud - "unable" is the key word along with a simple reason and the
alternate plan of action you intend to take.

What's a cloud - if you can't see thru it, it's a cloud (?)_

"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
ink.net...
I'm clear on how far away I have to stay from clouds during VFR flight,
and
I thought I knew a cloud when I saw one, but...

I took my brother-in-law up for his birthday yesterday morning. It was
pretty darn cool for late August, and all the river valleys were filled
with
fog. In fact, several nearby fields were reporting near zero
visibilities.
But my home airport, which sits on the top of a hill, was reporting sky
clear and visibility greater than 10 miles. He wasn't interested in
seeing
anything special, so we just took off, did a quick turn around the city,
and
came back into the pattern for a few touch and goes.

The tower cleared us straight in for the first one. As I entered downwind
for the next one, though, they told me to extend my downwind and that I
was
#2 behind a Citation on an 8 mile final. This normally wouldn't be a big
deal at all, but the downwind leg that I was on passes directly over a
steel
plant, which (like most steel mils) sits right along a river. All of the
natural fog from the river itself was safely down in the valley, well
below
the airport. But the steel plant was throwing up this huge amount of
vapor
which extended well above pattern altitude.

I'm guessing this counts as a "cloud", right? I mean, I couldn't see
through it. I don't know what the visibility would have been like inside
of
it, and I'm fairly sure that I would have been through it and out the
other
side in a matter of seconds, but it seemed to me that I should stay clear
of
it. I reduced my speed a bit to keep my extended downwind from getting
too
close to the steel mill, and began to think of a plan that would keep the
tower happy and me in legal VFR conditions. I was just about to ask to do
a
360 in place when the Citation came over the numbers and the tower cleared
me to turn base.

At that point, I asked to switch from touch-and-go to full stop, mostly
because I didn't want to get caught facing that vapor cloud again. In
hidsight, I suppose I could have asked to fly right traffic instead of
left.
There was nobody else in the pattern, and I don't think the tower
controllers would have cared. But I didn't think of that at the time, and
I
wasn't convinced that I could stay legal if someone in authority decided
that pillar of vapor coming from the steel plant constituted a "cloud".
So
I just landed and cut the flight short.

So was it a cloud or not?


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:30:54 GMT, "Geoffrey Barnes"
wrote in
. net::

I'm clear on how far away I have to stay from clouds during VFR flight, and
I thought I knew a cloud when I saw one, but...

Cloud is not defined in:

Title 14--Aeronautics and Space

CHAPTER I--FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF
TRANSPORTATION

SUBCHAPTER A--DEFINITIONS

PART 1--DEFINITIONS AND ABBREVIATIONS


http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....0.1.1&idno=14


However the Pilot/Controller Glossary contains this definition:
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/PCG/C.HTM

CLOUD- A cloud is a visible accumulation of minute water droplets
and/or ice particles in the atmosphere above the Earth's surface.
Cloud differs from ground fog, fog, or ice fog only in that the
latter are, by definition, in contact with the Earth's surface.

So a cloud is fog that is not in contact with the Earth's surface.
Unfortunately, 'fog' is not defined in that document nor Part 1.

Larry Dighera wrote:

So a cloud is fog that is not in contact with the Earth's surface.

Good to know, this will come handy the next time I'll fly in the
mountains. No danger to enter a cumulus, as a cumulus is clearly a cloud
and as such, by definition, not in contact with the earth. So there
can't be a mountain inside.

Stefan

When you let the tower know you are maneuver, which IMHO is the right thing
to do, tell them so and that you are doing it to remain VFR.

Scott

--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott F. Migaldi, K9PO
MI-150972
PP-ASEL-IA

Are you a PADI Instructor or DM? Then join the PADI
Instructor Yahoo Group at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PADI-Instructors/join
-----------------------------------
Catch the wave!
www.hamwave.com


"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we.
They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country
and our people, and neither do we." - George W. Bush

-------------------------------------
"Maule Driver" wrote in message
m...
It's a cloud.

It's really just as simple as deciding how you will stay outside of it, do
it, and inform the tower. If they are giving you instructions that take
you
thru the cloud - "unable" is the key word along with a simple reason and
the
alternate plan of action you intend to take.

What's a cloud - if you can't see thru it, it's a cloud (?)_

"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
ink.net...
I'm clear on how far away I have to stay from clouds during VFR flight,
and
I thought I knew a cloud when I saw one, but...

I took my brother-in-law up for his birthday yesterday morning. It was
pretty darn cool for late August, and all the river valleys were filled
with
fog. In fact, several nearby fields were reporting near zero
visibilities.
But my home airport, which sits on the top of a hill, was reporting sky
clear and visibility greater than 10 miles. He wasn't interested in
seeing
anything special, so we just took off, did a quick turn around the city,
and
came back into the pattern for a few touch and goes.

The tower cleared us straight in for the first one. As I entered
downwind
for the next one, though, they told me to extend my downwind and that I
was
#2 behind a Citation on an 8 mile final. This normally wouldn't be a
big
deal at all, but the downwind leg that I was on passes directly over a
steel
plant, which (like most steel mils) sits right along a river. All of
the
natural fog from the river itself was safely down in the valley, well
below
the airport. But the steel plant was throwing up this huge amount of
vapor
which extended well above pattern altitude.

I'm guessing this counts as a "cloud", right? I mean, I couldn't see
through it. I don't know what the visibility would have been like
inside
of
it, and I'm fairly sure that I would have been through it and out the
other
side in a matter of seconds, but it seemed to me that I should stay
clear
of
it. I reduced my speed a bit to keep my extended downwind from getting
too
close to the steel mill, and began to think of a plan that would keep
the
tower happy and me in legal VFR conditions. I was just about to ask to
do
a
360 in place when the Citation came over the numbers and the tower
cleared
me to turn base.

At that point, I asked to switch from touch-and-go to full stop, mostly
because I didn't want to get caught facing that vapor cloud again. In
hidsight, I suppose I could have asked to fly right traffic instead of
left.
There was nobody else in the pattern, and I don't think the tower
controllers would have cared. But I didn't think of that at the time,
and
I
wasn't convinced that I could stay legal if someone in authority decided
that pillar of vapor coming from the steel plant constituted a "cloud".
So
I just landed and cut the flight short.

So was it a cloud or not?


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004

--
*** A great civilization is not conquered from without, until it has
destroyed itself from within. ***
--- Ariel Durant 1898-1981

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Larry Dighera wrote:

So a cloud is fog that is not in contact with the Earth's surface.

Good to know, this will come handy the next time I'll fly in the
mountains. No danger to enter a cumulus, as a cumulus is clearly a cloud
and as such, by definition, not in contact with the earth. So there
can't be a mountain inside.


LOL... well, the problem will only develop when the cumulus was not formed
TOTALLY by classic cumulo-forming-bubble-rising mechanisms. Like, lets say
there is a little bit of upslope flow involved, and the other side of your
CU is flat against the 45-degree terrain which IS the "upslope". The trees
on that slope on the other side of the CU are, technically, in fog, but you
won't know that.....or care very much, in just a few minutes.....

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:54:10 +0200, Stefan
wrote in ::

Larry Dighera wrote:

So a cloud is fog that is not in contact with the Earth's surface.

Good to know, this will come handy the next time I'll fly in the
mountains. No danger to enter a cumulus, as a cumulus is clearly a cloud
and as such, by definition, not in contact with the earth. So there
can't be a mountain inside.

Stefan


LOL. Well, what's your definition of a cloud?

Larry Dighera wrote:

LOL. Well, what's your definition of a cloud?

Hve you ever tried to define what a dog is, in a purely abstract, yet
unequivocal way, and how it can be disdinguished at first sight from,
say, a cat or a hamster? With a definition that holds for all kinds,
forms and sizes of dogs? Yet if you see one, you recognize it.

Stefan

"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message news:2usWc.1623$Y%3

But I didn't think of that at the time, and I
wasn't convinced that I could stay legal if someone in authority decided
that pillar of vapor coming from the steel plant constituted a "cloud".

I don't know, but during my PPL training, pre-solo departing Troutdale, OR,
we flew through a papermill steam cloud over Camas, WA. Instant karma; had
us both gagging.

-c

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:28:11 -0700, "gatt"
wrote:


"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message news:2usWc.1623$Y%3

But I didn't think of that at the time, and I
wasn't convinced that I could stay legal if someone in authority decided
that pillar of vapor coming from the steel plant constituted a "cloud".

I don't know, but during my PPL training, pre-solo departing Troutdale, OR,
we flew through a papermill steam cloud over Camas, WA. Instant karma; had
us both gagging.

It's just steam from one of those places that make the clean white
paper. Breathe deep now! :-))

I was out fishing near the north end of a small lake (couple square
miles) that had a paper mill on the south end. The wind changed and I
found myself straight down wind from the mill. Whew!
They do use a lot of sulphur in paper manufacturing.
Good old Hydrogen Sulphide.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
-c