Looping during a commercial flight

Does anybody knows of a link where I could find exemples of certified
pilots suspended (or convicted or fined) for hazarduous manoeuvers
during a commercial flight.

I have heard that it is possible to make a lateral looping with a
heavy carrier without the passengers being aware of it (during a
nightfly with no visible landmarks) as more than changing headings.

Thanks for your help!

I have no proof, but looping an airliner without the passengers being aware
is not possible. Perhaps visually the passengers wouldn't notice, but
balance wise / spatially they certainly would. I have heard from many
sources that the last airliner to be taken for a loop was a B-707 after
which many of the A/C components shifted up to an inch, the pilot was
immediately disciplined! other similar instances have occurred on Russian
airliners by Ex-military pilots shortly after the war. At the Goodwood
Festival Of Speed (England) this year, there was a 'semi' aerobatic display
by a south African jumbo (consisting of very low steep turns)

"Rob Stokes" wrote in message ...
I have no proof, but looping an airliner without the passengers being aware
is not possible. Perhaps visually the passengers wouldn't notice, but
balance wise / spatially they certainly would. I have heard from many
sources that the last airliner to be taken for a loop was a B-707 after
which many of the A/C components shifted up to an inch, the pilot was
immediately disciplined! other similar instances have occurred on Russian
airliners by Ex-military pilots shortly after the war. At the Goodwood
Festival Of Speed (England) this year, there was a 'semi' aerobatic display
by a south African jumbo (consisting of very low steep turns)

Thanks for your input.
I am not an expert in flying terms so maybe it is not exactly
"looping" i heard of. The plane would drop to the left for exemple
with his longitudinal axis straight and acquire vertical speed. Then
the pilot would shift the stick right very slowly to convert this
vertical speed in a centrifugal vector. This is supposed to recreate
the same phenomemom as a pail full of water tied to a rope you turn
fast. So, as this theory goes, after the initial banking the figure
would make the passengers feel only a moderate or no increase in their
weight, the force being directed towards the floor of the plane. Since
the long axis of the plane is not disturbed no other noticeable
effects should appear...

But if it is unheard of, it may well be purely theorical or simply an
urban legend!

"LordAvalon" wrote in message
om...
"Rob Stokes" wrote in message
...
I have no proof, but looping an airliner without the passengers being
aware
is not possible. Perhaps visually the passengers wouldn't notice, but
balance wise / spatially they certainly would. I have heard from
many
sources that the last airliner to be taken for a loop was a B-707
after
which many of the A/C components shifted up to an inch, the pilot was
immediately disciplined! other similar instances have occurred on
Russian
airliners by Ex-military pilots shortly after the war. At the
Goodwood
Festival Of Speed (England) this year, there was a 'semi' aerobatic
display
by a south African jumbo (consisting of very low steep turns)

Thanks for your input.
I am not an expert in flying terms so maybe it is not exactly
"looping" i heard of. The plane would drop to the left for exemple
with his longitudinal axis straight and acquire vertical speed. Then
the pilot would shift the stick right very slowly to convert this
vertical speed in a centrifugal vector. This is supposed to recreate
the same phenomemom as a pail full of water tied to a rope you turn
fast. So, as this theory goes, after the initial banking the figure
would make the passengers feel only a moderate or no increase in their
weight, the force being directed towards the floor of the plane. Since
the long axis of the plane is not disturbed no other noticeable
effects should appear...

But if it is unheard of, it may well be purely theorical or simply an
urban legend!

No. It's possible, but I haven't heard of it being done successfully in
the pure vertical plane as in a straight positive g loop. More likely in
a three dimensional maneuver like a barrel roll. The energy or Ps bleed
for a big jet is tremendous in the vertical plane, and an entry airspeed
required to get everything up and around the topside apex would be
considerable to say the least. Considering the huge drag index against
what would have to be at least a 4 positive g pull to even have a chance
at an inverted apex, the entry speed would be prohibitive for safety I
think; considering the aerodynamic factors and the requirement for
positive g at the top for the scavenger pumps. In other words, floating
it through the top unloaded is eliminated from the equation because of
the pumps if nothing else. The engines oil system requires positive g to
operate. Unloading would deny the engines oil and the result at a high
percent RPM or EPR could lose you the engines. The result of that would
be a negative nose rate and developing vertical descent while inverted
that could really spoil your afternoon :-)
In a normal loop, you ease off the positive g at the top to round it off
and keep the AOA in limits. In a big jet, this could really be a
problem.
A three dimensional roll (barrel roll) is possible for a big jet, and
has been done, even in the prototype 707. You are right about keeping
the g positive all the way around. Both myself and several other
demonstration pilots at one time or another have barreled airplanes with
a glass of water on the instrument glare shield. I have done it in a D18
Twin Beech several times and Bob Hoover has done it in a Shrike
Commander......many times. :-)
In barrel rolling a large airplane, you can keep the stress at a minimum
and perform the maneuver in a wide low positive g profile that is kept
positive all the way around. Because it's FLOWN around the circle rather
than a pure roll on the longitudinal axis, the deep dishout on the back
side that would be the result of an aileron roll can be eliminated by
the trade off in altitude on the upside against the backside recovery.
Basically, even though I'm sure a pure loop has been done by heavy jets
at one time or another, I would classify the maneuver as extremely risky
at best, and totally unwise to attempt. But as I said....I'm sure
somebody managed to get the entry speed necessary to do it regardless of
the risk, and somehow managed to pull it around without shedding all the
critical parts in the process. But I wouldn't want to be the next pilot
to fly that airplane :-)
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Flight Instructor/Aerobatics/Retired

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message link.net...
"LordAvalon" wrote in message
om...
"Rob Stokes" wrote in message
...
I have no proof, but looping an airliner without the passengers being
aware
is not possible. Perhaps visually the passengers wouldn't notice, but
balance wise / spatially they certainly would. I have heard from
many
sources that the last airliner to be taken for a loop was a B-707
after
which many of the A/C components shifted up to an inch, the pilot was
immediately disciplined! other similar instances have occurred on
Russian
airliners by Ex-military pilots shortly after the war. At the
Goodwood
Festival Of Speed (England) this year, there was a 'semi' aerobatic
display
by a south African jumbo (consisting of very low steep turns)

Thanks for your input.
I am not an expert in flying terms so maybe it is not exactly
"looping" i heard of. The plane would drop to the left for exemple
with his longitudinal axis straight and acquire vertical speed. Then
the pilot would shift the stick right very slowly to convert this
vertical speed in a centrifugal vector. This is supposed to recreate
the same phenomemom as a pail full of water tied to a rope you turn
fast. So, as this theory goes, after the initial banking the figure
would make the passengers feel only a moderate or no increase in their
weight, the force being directed towards the floor of the plane. Since
the long axis of the plane is not disturbed no other noticeable
effects should appear...

But if it is unheard of, it may well be purely theorical or simply an
urban legend!

No. It's possible, but I haven't heard of it being done successfully in
the pure vertical plane as in a straight positive g loop. More likely in
a three dimensional maneuver like a barrel roll. The energy or Ps bleed
for a big jet is tremendous in the vertical plane, and an entry airspeed
required to get everything up and around the topside apex would be
considerable to say the least. Considering the huge drag index against
what would have to be at least a 4 positive g pull to even have a chance
at an inverted apex, the entry speed would be prohibitive for safety I
think; considering the aerodynamic factors and the requirement for
positive g at the top for the scavenger pumps. In other words, floating
it through the top unloaded is eliminated from the equation because of
the pumps if nothing else. The engines oil system requires positive g to
operate. Unloading would deny the engines oil and the result at a high
percent RPM or EPR could lose you the engines. The result of that would
be a negative nose rate and developing vertical descent while inverted
that could really spoil your afternoon :-)
In a normal loop, you ease off the positive g at the top to round it off
and keep the AOA in limits. In a big jet, this could really be a
problem.
A three dimensional roll (barrel roll) is possible for a big jet, and
has been done, even in the prototype 707. You are right about keeping
the g positive all the way around. Both myself and several other
demonstration pilots at one time or another have barreled airplanes with
a glass of water on the instrument glare shield. I have done it in a D18
Twin Beech several times and Bob Hoover has done it in a Shrike
Commander......many times. :-)
In barrel rolling a large airplane, you can keep the stress at a minimum
and perform the maneuver in a wide low positive g profile that is kept
positive all the way around. Because it's FLOWN around the circle rather
than a pure roll on the longitudinal axis, the deep dishout on the back
side that would be the result of an aileron roll can be eliminated by
the trade off in altitude on the upside against the backside recovery.
Basically, even though I'm sure a pure loop has been done by heavy jets
at one time or another, I would classify the maneuver as extremely risky
at best, and totally unwise to attempt. But as I said....I'm sure
somebody managed to get the entry speed necessary to do it regardless of
the risk, and somehow managed to pull it around without shedding all the
critical parts in the process. But I wouldn't want to be the next pilot
to fly that airplane :-)
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Flight Instructor/Aerobatics/Retired

Thanks a lot for your learned answer. What I have heard of is
certainly what you call "barrel rolling". According to the unreliable
"sources", the pilot of a commercial flight would have done this
barrel rolling at night. Nobody in the plane would have noticed it but
an "Aviation Board Inspector(?)" is supposed to have been present and
reported the deed. Which would have led to sanctions against the
author... To be confirmed!

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...



SNIP

A three dimensional roll (barrel roll) is possible for a big jet, and has
been done, even in the prototype 707. You are right about keeping the g
positive all the way around. Both myself and several other demonstration
pilots at one time or another have barreled airplanes with a glass of
water on the instrument glare shield. I have done it in a D18 Twin Beech
several times and Bob Hoover has done it in a Shrike Commander......many
times. :-)

Hi Mr. H,

I didn't realize you'd performed this feat as well...too cool!

Me, I have trouble sometimes just taking a sip of water from a squeeze
bottle on cross country flights LOL.

I recall seeing film of Mr. Hoover doing this with a golf ball hanging off
the overhead and while POURING a glass of water from a pitcher.

Not a drop of water gets spilled and golf ball never moves (the string is
ram-rod straight) while the horizon is seen through the windscreen revolving
through 360 degrees !!

Amazing control...

Regards,

Jay Beckman
Chandler, AZ
PP-ASEL
Still Nowhere to go but up!

About doing a barrel roll at night with relationship to passengers;
it is possible, and could be done. The passengers, within a closed
environment, would feel the onset of whatever positive g was used by the
pilot to initiate the roll. If the pilot was very good, and kept perfect
control coordination all through the roll, all the passengers would feel
would be the positive g and no side g loads would be felt.
In short, a barrel roll under the conditions you have stated although
possible, would have to be executed perfectly not to alarm passengers
subjected to it at night in a closed cabin. :-)
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Flight Instructor/Aerobatics/Retired

"LordAvalon" wrote in message
om...
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
link.net...
"LordAvalon" wrote in message
om...
"Rob Stokes" wrote in message
...
I have no proof, but looping an airliner without the passengers
being
aware
is not possible. Perhaps visually the passengers wouldn't notice,
but
balance wise / spatially they certainly would. I have heard from
many
sources that the last airliner to be taken for a loop was a B-707
after
which many of the A/C components shifted up to an inch, the pilot
was
immediately disciplined! other similar instances have occurred on
Russian
airliners by Ex-military pilots shortly after the war. At the
Goodwood
Festival Of Speed (England) this year, there was a 'semi'
aerobatic
display
by a south African jumbo (consisting of very low steep turns)

Thanks for your input.
I am not an expert in flying terms so maybe it is not exactly
"looping" i heard of. The plane would drop to the left for exemple
with his longitudinal axis straight and acquire vertical speed.
Then
the pilot would shift the stick right very slowly to convert this
vertical speed in a centrifugal vector. This is supposed to
recreate
the same phenomemom as a pail full of water tied to a rope you turn
fast. So, as this theory goes, after the initial banking the figure
would make the passengers feel only a moderate or no increase in
their
weight, the force being directed towards the floor of the plane.
Since
the long axis of the plane is not disturbed no other noticeable
effects should appear...

But if it is unheard of, it may well be purely theorical or simply
an
urban legend!

No. It's possible, but I haven't heard of it being done successfully
in
the pure vertical plane as in a straight positive g loop. More likely
in
a three dimensional maneuver like a barrel roll. The energy or Ps
bleed
for a big jet is tremendous in the vertical plane, and an entry
airspeed
required to get everything up and around the topside apex would be
considerable to say the least. Considering the huge drag index
against
what would have to be at least a 4 positive g pull to even have a
chance
at an inverted apex, the entry speed would be prohibitive for safety
I
think; considering the aerodynamic factors and the requirement for
positive g at the top for the scavenger pumps. In other words,
floating
it through the top unloaded is eliminated from the equation because
of
the pumps if nothing else. The engines oil system requires positive g
to
operate. Unloading would deny the engines oil and the result at a
high
percent RPM or EPR could lose you the engines. The result of that
would
be a negative nose rate and developing vertical descent while
inverted
that could really spoil your afternoon :-)
In a normal loop, you ease off the positive g at the top to round it
off
and keep the AOA in limits. In a big jet, this could really be a
problem.
A three dimensional roll (barrel roll) is possible for a big jet, and
has been done, even in the prototype 707. You are right about keeping
the g positive all the way around. Both myself and several other
demonstration pilots at one time or another have barreled airplanes
with
a glass of water on the instrument glare shield. I have done it in a
D18
Twin Beech several times and Bob Hoover has done it in a Shrike
Commander......many times. :-)
In barrel rolling a large airplane, you can keep the stress at a
minimum
and perform the maneuver in a wide low positive g profile that is
kept
positive all the way around. Because it's FLOWN around the circle
rather
than a pure roll on the longitudinal axis, the deep dishout on the
back
side that would be the result of an aileron roll can be eliminated by
the trade off in altitude on the upside against the backside
recovery.
Basically, even though I'm sure a pure loop has been done by heavy
jets
at one time or another, I would classify the maneuver as extremely
risky
at best, and totally unwise to attempt. But as I said....I'm sure
somebody managed to get the entry speed necessary to do it regardless
of
the risk, and somehow managed to pull it around without shedding all
the
critical parts in the process. But I wouldn't want to be the next
pilot
to fly that airplane :-)
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Flight Instructor/Aerobatics/Retired

Thanks a lot for your learned answer. What I have heard of is
certainly what you call "barrel rolling". According to the unreliable
"sources", the pilot of a commercial flight would have done this
barrel rolling at night. Nobody in the plane would have noticed it but
an "Aviation Board Inspector(?)" is supposed to have been present and
reported the deed. Which would have led to sanctions against the
author... To be confirmed!

"Jay Beckman" wrote in message
news:K1Kdd.7927$SW3.788@fed1read01...
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...



SNIP

A three dimensional roll (barrel roll) is possible for a big jet, and
has been done, even in the prototype 707. You are right about keeping
the g positive all the way around. Both myself and several other
demonstration pilots at one time or another have barreled airplanes
with a glass of water on the instrument glare shield. I have done it
in a D18 Twin Beech several times and Bob Hoover has done it in a
Shrike Commander......many times. :-)

Hi Mr. H,

I didn't realize you'd performed this feat as well...too cool!

Me, I have trouble sometimes just taking a sip of water from a squeeze
bottle on cross country flights LOL.

I recall seeing film of Mr. Hoover doing this with a golf ball hanging
off the overhead and while POURING a glass of water from a pitcher.

Not a drop of water gets spilled and golf ball never moves (the string
is ram-rod straight) while the horizon is seen through the windscreen
revolving through 360 degrees !!

Amazing control...

Regards,

Jay Beckman
Chandler, AZ
PP-ASEL
Still Nowhere to go but up!

Hi Jay;

Bob Hoover was one of the first charter members of the International
Fighter Pilots Fellowship and is one of the premier demonstration pilots
in the world.
My little "feat" in the D18 was done more or less as an imitation of
what Bob did in the Shrike just to see if we could do it . In all truth
I should say it took a few tries to get it absolutely right, and I did
come home one day with a wet flightsuit ;-) I would imagine Bob has
managed to get a bit wet once or twice himself on occasion when he
wasn't filming :-))
Dudley

Is there a video you watched him doing this? Where can I see this feat?


"Jay Beckman" wrote in message
news:K1Kdd.7927$SW3.788@fed1read01...
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...



SNIP

A three dimensional roll (barrel roll) is possible for a big jet, and
has
been done, even in the prototype 707. You are right about keeping the g
positive all the way around. Both myself and several other demonstration
pilots at one time or another have barreled airplanes with a glass of
water on the instrument glare shield. I have done it in a D18 Twin Beech
several times and Bob Hoover has done it in a Shrike Commander......many
times. :-)

Hi Mr. H,

I didn't realize you'd performed this feat as well...too cool!

Me, I have trouble sometimes just taking a sip of water from a squeeze
bottle on cross country flights LOL.

I recall seeing film of Mr. Hoover doing this with a golf ball hanging off
the overhead and while POURING a glass of water from a pitcher.

Not a drop of water gets spilled and golf ball never moves (the string is
ram-rod straight) while the horizon is seen through the windscreen
revolving
through 360 degrees !!

Amazing control...

Regards,

Jay Beckman
Chandler, AZ
PP-ASEL
Still Nowhere to go but up!

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message link.net...
About doing a barrel roll at night with relationship to passengers;
it is possible, and could be done. The passengers, within a closed
environment, would feel the onset of whatever positive g was used by the
pilot to initiate the roll.

Dudley,

In the original post, the question asked if this could be done without
the pax noticing *anything* different from normal flight. Most
kerosene queens are flown with very little g loading to keep 'em happy
in back, but I can't barrel without pulling a bit on the entry and
exit. Now, maybe you or Bob can fly a barrel roll without exceeding
1.3-ish g's, but I know that I can't... and the last time I checked,
the grandma back in 23B noticed when the g-meter hit 3+.

Can you fly one with *very* light g-loads on the entry? If so, how do
you get the nose high enough to recover at that g-load without falling
out? Will you show me how to do it????

Thanks,

-Dave Russell
N2S-3