what to do (CFI)

Question for you experts out there...

I am a fixed wing pilot with 1000+ TT, MEI, CFII, CFI

I have a couple of hours helicopter time. I would like to eventually
get my rotorcraft CFI rating. I understand this would require getting
my rotorcraft add on.

1) What is the best way of getting from where I am now to a rotor CFI ?
(by best I mean cheapest)

2) Do I go direct to Commercial rotorcraft or do I have to get Private
rotorcraft ?

3) Do I do a ride for the rotorcraft CFI ?

4) Is there a good school where I can get all of these ratings quickly
and efficiently in an intensive training program ? I don't want to do a
couple of hours a month.

5) Any guesses as to costs ? $$$ ?

6) Does anybody anywhere rent a helicopter anymore, or is it just dual
instruction ?

7) Does it make more economic sense for me to buy a used Hughes 269 and
train in it, then sell it when I am done training ?

I am not doing this as a career, just because I love helicopters.

thanks in advance for the help !

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 02:42:27 GMT, rotorcfiwannabe
wrote:


Question for you experts out there...

I am a fixed wing pilot with 1000+ TT, MEI, CFII, CFI

I have a couple of hours helicopter time. I would like to eventually
get my rotorcraft CFI rating. I understand this would require getting
my rotorcraft add on.

1) What is the best way of getting from where I am now to a rotor CFI ?
(by best I mean cheapest)

2) Do I go direct to Commercial rotorcraft or do I have to get Private
rotorcraft ?

Commercial add on, 50 hours.

3) Do I do a ride for the rotorcraft CFI ?

yes, and an oral

4) Is there a good school where I can get all of these ratings quickly
and efficiently in an intensive training program ? I don't want to do a
couple of hours a month.

See the ads in Rotor & Wing

5) Any guesses as to costs ? $$$ ?

I'd figure around $150 to $225 hourly depending on if your are in a
R-22 or H-300

6) Does anybody anywhere rent a helicopter anymore, or is it just dual
instruction ?

There are places out there that will rent to you.

7) Does it make more economic sense for me to buy a used Hughes 269 and
train in it, then sell it when I am done training ?

No

I am not doing this as a career, just because I love helicopters.

Its an expensive hobby.

thanks in advance for the help !

The best rates I've seen were at Zemlock Helicopters at Chino Airport in
Chino Ca. I told a CEO from a Canadian firm about it and he went there with
his camper and walked away with his rating. The rate last I looked was
$145/hr dual and a lot of free ground school. I did my helo add-on there.
I also parked and told the guy I was looking for a particular piece of paper
and would leave when I found it. They use a Bell 47 which is a bit of a
pussy cat compared to the R22 and Schweitzer 300CB.
I built and am flying what amounts to a Safari helicopter and having a ball.

Stuart Fields
Builder, Pilot and Broker for the Safari Kit Helicopter.
"Hammer" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 02:42:27 GMT, rotorcfiwannabe
wrote:


Question for you experts out there...

I am a fixed wing pilot with 1000+ TT, MEI, CFII, CFI

I have a couple of hours helicopter time. I would like to eventually
get my rotorcraft CFI rating. I understand this would require getting
my rotorcraft add on.

1) What is the best way of getting from where I am now to a rotor CFI ?
(by best I mean cheapest)

2) Do I go direct to Commercial rotorcraft or do I have to get Private
rotorcraft ?

Commercial add on, 50 hours.

3) Do I do a ride for the rotorcraft CFI ?

yes, and an oral

4) Is there a good school where I can get all of these ratings quickly
and efficiently in an intensive training program ? I don't want to do a
couple of hours a month.

See the ads in Rotor & Wing

5) Any guesses as to costs ? $$$ ?

I'd figure around $150 to $225 hourly depending on if your are in a
R-22 or H-300

6) Does anybody anywhere rent a helicopter anymore, or is it just dual
instruction ?

There are places out there that will rent to you.

7) Does it make more economic sense for me to buy a used Hughes 269 and

train in it, then sell it when I am done training ?

No

I am not doing this as a career, just because I love helicopters.

Its an expensive hobby.

thanks in advance for the help !

rotorcfiwannabe wrote in message . net...
Question for you experts out there...

I am a fixed wing pilot with 1000+ TT, MEI, CFII, CFI

I have a couple of hours helicopter time. I would like to eventually
get my rotorcraft CFI rating. I understand this would require getting
my rotorcraft add on.

1) What is the best way of getting from where I am now to a rotor CFI ?
(by best I mean cheapest)

2) Do I go direct to Commercial rotorcraft or do I have to get Private
rotorcraft ?

3) Do I do a ride for the rotorcraft CFI ?

4) Is there a good school where I can get all of these ratings quickly
and efficiently in an intensive training program ? I don't want to do a
couple of hours a month.

5) Any guesses as to costs ? $$$ ?

6) Does anybody anywhere rent a helicopter anymore, or is it just dual
instruction ?

7) Does it make more economic sense for me to buy a used Hughes 269 and
train in it, then sell it when I am done training ?

I am not doing this as a career, just because I love helicopters.

thanks in advance for the help !

There is no cheap way to achieve your goals and when you finally do
you are in for a huge disappointment. If you want to restrict yourself
to just rotorcraft as a CFI you'll find students are a rarity unless
you work for a school that does extensive advertising and sales. Most
of them hire their own students as both a money saver (which drives
the world) and as part of their sales pitch to find the student
immediate employment in helicopter work.
Yes I am jaded big time. I've got more than 21,000 hours in the
logbooks and no idea how much isn't in them. I've had my rotor CFI
since the very early 70's and have given perhaps a thousand hours of
basic and advanced rotor training like in crop dusting and more than
8000 hours in rotorcraft? Yet, in todays atmosphere of insurance
nightmares and litigation, I am not "qualified" to give dual in a
private owners helicopter unless I have been to the approved factory
school. When I asked if a brand new 200 hour pilot who had attended a
factory school was more qualified than I was with more than a thousand
hours in type, I was told, "You must attend a factory school for us to
insure you". No ifs buts or ands.

Thanks to all who responded. I am looking forward to finally getting my
rotocraft rating.

I really don't see flying helicopters as a viable career path, unless you
were military trained. The costs don't outweight the benefits IMHO.

Becoming a helicopter pilot is one of my life goals, and if I can instruct
then that would be icing on the cake.

My hat is off to you folks that are doing this for a career. I know things
are tough in the fixed wing world, but from the looks of it, the rotorcraft
world has always had it tougher, even in the "good times".

Fly safely.

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:22:37 GMT, rotorcfiwannabe
wrote:


Thanks to all who responded. I am looking forward to finally getting my
rotocraft rating.

I really don't see flying helicopters as a viable career path, unless you
were military trained. The costs don't outweight the benefits IMHO.

Becoming a helicopter pilot is one of my life goals, and if I can instruct
then that would be icing on the cake.

My hat is off to you folks that are doing this for a career. I know things
are tough in the fixed wing world, but from the looks of it, the rotorcraft
world has always had it tougher, even in the "good times".

Fly safely.

How long till you get your CFI? Let me know, and I just might be one of your
first students.
TM

--
Toadmonkey: "Now now. Brain popping and world crashing may be hazardous to ones perception of reality.
Very dangerous business that can lead to madness or something worse for some, truth."


Remove "3+4" from addy before replying


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At my flight school we frequently have stuck-wing pilots with various
advanced ratings (commercial, instrument, instructor-airplane, etc.) wanting
to add rotor to their bag of tricks.

If you want to go the CFI route, you'll need at least a commercial add-on,
after which you can go directly for instructor-helicopter. There is no
requirement for a helicopter instrument rating to get your CFI-H.

We advocate getting a private pilot helicopter add-on first rather than
going directly for commercial. The reason for this is, to meet the
commercial add-on requirements you'll need 150 hours as a pilot, 100 of
which must be in powered aircraft (you already meet these) of which 50 must
be in helicopters. You also need 10 hours of PIC time which includes at
least 35 hours in helicopters.

Meeting the 35 hr. PIC requirement and the 50 hr. helicopter time
requirement in exactly 50 hours isn't going to happen, because the only way
you can log the PIC time before you get the commercial add-on is flying
solo. So that means 35 hours of solo, leaving 15 for instruction? Uh-uh.
Try double that. Additionally, the solo time is not very useful to you.
Flying solo you won't be able to practice emergency procedures, since you
won't have an instructor in the cockpit, so you'll end up with 35 hours in
which you didn't learn anything new. You'll be behind the curve.

I believe it makes more sense to first shoot for your private add-on and
THEN go for the commercial add-on. This way, all the time you fly after the
private add-on is PIC time, and PIC time is king in helicopters. You'll
need anywhere from 200 to 500 PIC hours to get hired as a helicopter
instructor, so why short yourself? Skipping the private doesn't really
help. In my opinion, an attempt to jump right to comm. will actually slow
you down. Most importantly, that 35 hour PIC requirement (you'll have flown
some PIC as a solo student, so it'll be less than that when you start on the
comm. add-on) can be met while flying with your instructor (you'll be PIC,
unlike in the former scenario.) Now you can spend that 35 hours honing your
autos, running landings, stuck pedal recoveries, etc. You'll be in much
better shape to knock out the CFI right after you finish comm going this
route.

The cheapest way to get your rotor CFI starting from where you are now
is... well, heck. There is no "cheap" way. You can shop prices, but be
careful. You may wish to read up on the Robinson R-22 vs. the Schweizer
300CB. I think the latter is a vastly superior aircraft for training
(namely in the safety department), but you can come to your own conclusions.

You didn't state where you're located, but there are a lot of good
helicopter schools in the state of Florida. My school (Orlando Helicopter
Training, gotta plug it!) is one, with 2 300CBs and one 300CBi online;
Tropical Helicopters in Leesburg is another; and HAI (Helicopter Adventures,
Inc.) is the largest, out on the space coast in Titusville with a fleet of
25 or so helicopters (not sure of the exact number.) All will offer
programs to get you finished up as rapidly as possible.

Since you're looking at 30 hours minimum to get your private pilot rotor
ticket, then maybe another 30 for commercial, and finally maybe 10 for your
CFI, and prices average around $200-$220/hr. in these parts, I'd guesstimate
you'll spend around $15k-$20k depending on how quickly you go.

Yes, you can rent helicopters solo, usually at the school you trained with -
or at other schools, with a checkout. Oftentimes the requirements to rent
solo at a school that didn't train you will be more burdensome than it would
be if you were renting stuck-wing aircraft. A checkout plus five dual hours
in their aircraft isn't uncommon.

I'd advise not jumping into the helicopter ownership game with anything less
than full attention to the matter at hand. Things can get extremely
expensive faster than you could imagine.

Good luck!

-Ryan
CFI-IA/MEI/CFI-H

rotorcfiwannabe wrote:

Question for you experts out there...

I am a fixed wing pilot with 1000+ TT, MEI, CFII, CFI

I have a couple of hours helicopter time. I would like to eventually
get my rotorcraft CFI rating. I understand this would require getting
my rotorcraft add on.

1) What is the best way of getting from where I am now to a rotor CFI ?
(by best I mean cheapest)

2) Do I go direct to Commercial rotorcraft or do I have to get Private
rotorcraft ?

3) Do I do a ride for the rotorcraft CFI ?

4) Is there a good school where I can get all of these ratings quickly
and efficiently in an intensive training program ? I don't want to do a
couple of hours a month.

5) Any guesses as to costs ? $$$ ?

6) Does anybody anywhere rent a helicopter anymore, or is it just dual
instruction ?

7) Does it make more economic sense for me to buy a used Hughes 269 and
train in it, then sell it when I am done training ?

I am not doing this as a career, just because I love helicopters.

thanks in advance for the help !

Ryan Ferguson wrote:

be in helicopters. You also need 10 hours of PIC time which includes at
least 35 hours in helicopters.

That should read '100 hours' of PIC time. Must've missed a zero.

"rotorcfiwannabe" wrote in message
et...


5) Any guesses as to costs ? $$$ ?


I have a pretty good guess as I just did exactly this last winter and I kept
very accurate records of my cost.

I was a fixed wing CFI and obtained my private, commercial, instrument and
CFI helicopter-add on ratings.

I got my private on Feb 24, 03
Instrument on Mar 13, 03
Commercial on April 10, 03
and CFI on April 11, 03.

At a whopping total of $14042.40
Plus 4 checkrides a $300.00 each for another $1200.00
Grand total of $15242.40


If you are not going to do the Instrument, then you could subtract $4199.50
from the above. (The price I paid for 15 hours of instrument training plus
ground school.

It all could have been done a even faster and cheaper but I had problems
thru the private level with;
# 1 instructors not being up to par.. (ie. low time, inexperienced)
#2 Helicopter not being ready to fly when I would arrive due to various
problems. (i.e. Maintenance, scheduling conflicts, etc...)
#3 One instructor whom IMHO was charging me inappropriately. Unfortunately,
this is the one instructor that I enjoyed the most and felt I learned the
fastest from.
#4 Changing to the R-22 which required me to have more time prior to solo.
(I don't regret this, just ended up costing a little more in the long run.)

All my training was in Southern California. I drove everyday, sometimes 2
hours (one way) to get to the school, just so I could fly helicopters.

The first school I went to was the cheapest I'd found anywhere. There were
numerous times that I would arrive and the helicopter was not ready or
available for whatever reason. I felt they were not as serious about my
flying as I was and finally gave up and moved on to another school.

The next school was more expensive but started off good, but it soon became
apparent to me that the instructor was inexperienced and I was feeling like
I could do so much more if I had someone else, someone with more real life
helicopter experience. The final straw for me was a drizzly day I was
turning the corner a block away from the school, when my cell phone rang and
it was the instructor telling me we couldn't fly because it was raining. I
thought he was joking and asked him what he was talking about. (This was the
kind of rain that if you drive your windshield gets wet, but when you stop
and get out of the car, you don't feel a thing) Anyway, when I questioned
him as to 'why we couldn't fly?' his response was, "Because the helicopter
doesn't have windshield wipers". I knew that day it was time to move on to
another school.

I turned around and drove straight to another school where I had talked to
the instructor just a few days earlier. By the time I reached this place,
another hour and a half from where I just left, the rain was poring and the
winds were 12 gusting to 19. The instant I walked in the door the instructor
saw me and said, 'Ready to go fly'. I said "That's what I'm here for", and
he handed me the book and keys and off I went in the wind and rain to
preflight. I loved flying with this guy, he was awesome. Had over 5000 hours
or real world heli time and instructed because he loved it. This was the
kind of instructor I needed and I appreciated flying with someone who #1
wasn't worried about flying because of some rain or wind, and #2 saw in me
that I had the determination, desire and ability to excel beyond just a
simple, fair weather pilot and not only was capable of flying in adverse
conditions, but actually kind of enjoyed it.

I learned more from this guy on our first flight than with anyone before or
since. He had me doing commercial maneuvers and mountain flying thru the
remainder of my Private pilot because he saw that I was ready for it. This
guy could immediately see where your problems where and tell you exactly
what you needed to help you correct them in the shortest time possible. If
I'd gone with this guy from the very beginning, I think it would have been
cheaper in the long run than even the cheapest schools, because he 'gets it
across to you in less time, and he makes you one hell of a helicopter pilot
to boot.

My problem with him came from what I felt was in appropriate billing... he
did some things that I (as a flight instructor) would never do to my
students and we were unable to come to an agreement on the issues so I moved
on. It was a matter of principle to me. Unfortunately, I believe these
issues would probably have never come up if I had done all my training with
him from the beginning. I still like the guy and think he's one hell of a
pilot/instructor and would recommend him in a second to anyone looking to
fly in the So Cal area. (Plus, the guy doesn't do instrument ratings so I
had to move on anyway to do that portion.)

Next I ended up in Long Beach where I met one of the nicest guys I've met in
the helicopter business, who genuinely wants you to succeed as quickly and
cheaply as possible. He was willing to work with me financially when I
thought I might not have the funds to finish, which ended up not happening,
but he was willing. He offered me an open invitation to a job working for
him, which I quite possibly will take him up on this coming winter after my
job winds down in Alaska.

Anyway, thru him, I completed my instrument, commercial and CFI in minimal
time. But, I have to step back to my instructor just prior, who enabled and
demanded that I fly to a level that even allowed me to accomplish these
things.

That probably more information than you were hoping for. If you're
considering training in So Cal let me know and I'll be happy to point you to
these guys, and away from the others.

PJ Hunt wrote:

Grand total of $15242.40

That looks awfully good compared to what I'll pay for 2100 hours of A&P training.

That probably more information than you were hoping for. If you're
considering training in So Cal let me know and I'll be happy to point you to
these guys, and away from the others.

I'd like this info too please. If you'll send it to I'll
clear out the worms and virii twice a day to make sure my little inbox has room
for it.