Lancair IV-P lost near Lansing MI

"Aardvark" wrote in message
...
Roger Halstead wrote:


Any one have any information on the IV-P that went down around 2:00 PM
about 30 miles west of Lansing MI on Monday?

There was a story in the paper, but it was a bit short on details.
It was registered to Ward Synthesis Inc. The flight was to be from
Ypsilanti MI to Billings Mont.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Has photo here
http://fox17.trb.com/news/053104-wxm...,2121139.story


http://www.freep.com/news/statewire/...8_20040601.htm
The Eaton County sheriff's department identified the victims as Allen
Ward, 52, of Ypsilanti, the pilot; and passengers Jeffrey Chen, 23, of
Milford and Roger Hertz, 36, of Burlington, Ontario

Lots of links
http://makeashorterlink.com/?T56123478



Fuel exhaustion? Seems plausible.

"Darkwing Duck (The Duck, The Myth, The Legend)"
wrote in message ...

"Aardvark" wrote in message
...
Roger Halstead wrote:


Any one have any information on the IV-P that went down around 2:00 PM
about 30 miles west of Lansing MI on Monday?

There was a story in the paper, but it was a bit short on details.
It was registered to Ward Synthesis Inc. The flight was to be from
Ypsilanti MI to Billings Mont.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Has photo here
http://fox17.trb.com/news/053104-wxm...,2121139.story


http://www.freep.com/news/statewire/...8_20040601.htm
The Eaton County sheriff's department identified the victims as Allen
Ward, 52, of Ypsilanti, the pilot; and passengers Jeffrey Chen, 23, of
Milford and Roger Hertz, 36, of Burlington, Ontario

Lots of links
http://makeashorterlink.com/?T56123478



Fuel exhaustion? Seems plausible.

Nah, there would have been a mayday call or something if they had just ran
out of gas.

The one article has a witness statement that I think could be telling:
"The plane appeared to be flying normally, flat, and then went up like it
was trying to go higher, went into a spiral and crashed into the ground."

Sounds to me like the pilot or passenger could have accidentally hit the
control stick, pitched the plane up suddenly and set her into a spin.
(assuming the witness is reliable).

Nah, there would have been a mayday call or something if they had just ran
out of gas.

The one article has a witness statement that I think could be telling:
"The plane appeared to be flying normally, flat, and then went up like it
was trying to go higher, went into a spiral and crashed into the ground."

Sounds to me like the pilot or passenger could have accidentally hit the
control stick, pitched the plane up suddenly and set her into a spin.
(assuming the witness is reliable).


Yeah. Looks like a stall-spin scenario alright. I wonder why they
got it into a stall in the first place?

This is really sad because the ****ing insurance companies are going
to stop insuring the Lancairs because of the high accident rates.
I'll bet you most of them throw in the towel soon. Insurance runs
$12,000 a year now on the Legacy.

The Lancair's have that high aspect ratio wing with high wing
loading. The Legacy is up at about 23 pounds/sq ft, and when it
stalls, it bites hard. Most of the rich guys who buy them are
doctors, not test pilots. And, it's those weekend types that get
killed when the thing departs from it's normal flight characteristics.
I was talking to a Legacy owner yesterday and he told me he never
stalled his, NEVER. He just didn't want to pursue the flight
characteristics in a stall. So, he just flies it fast all the time.
I guess that's one way of doing it. But, I'd rather be proficient at
recovery from a stall than never try it. That's just the way I feel
about it. I'd stall and spin the **** out of it if I had one. With
the new EFIS panels, you're not going to tumble a $3000 gyro anymore.
I'd spin it until I got proficient at the recovery or proficient at
avoiding a spin if it stalled. If you don't do that, your envelope is
pretty narrow.

BWB

"Badwater Bill" wrote in message
.. .

Nah, there would have been a mayday call or something if they had just
ran
out of gas.

The one article has a witness statement that I think could be telling:
"The plane appeared to be flying normally, flat, and then went up like it
was trying to go higher, went into a spiral and crashed into the ground."

Sounds to me like the pilot or passenger could have accidentally hit the
control stick, pitched the plane up suddenly and set her into a spin.
(assuming the witness is reliable).


Yeah. Looks like a stall-spin scenario alright. I wonder why they
got it into a stall in the first place?

This is really sad because the ****ing insurance companies are going
to stop insuring the Lancairs because of the high accident rates.
I'll bet you most of them throw in the towel soon. Insurance runs
$12,000 a year now on the Legacy.

The Lancair's have that high aspect ratio wing with high wing
loading. The Legacy is up at about 23 pounds/sq ft, and when it
stalls, it bites hard. Most of the rich guys who buy them are
doctors, not test pilots. And, it's those weekend types that get
killed when the thing departs from it's normal flight characteristics.
I was talking to a Legacy owner yesterday and he told me he never
stalled his, NEVER. He just didn't want to pursue the flight
characteristics in a stall. So, he just flies it fast all the time.
I guess that's one way of doing it. But, I'd rather be proficient at
recovery from a stall than never try it. That's just the way I feel
about it. I'd stall and spin the **** out of it if I had one. With
the new EFIS panels, you're not going to tumble a $3000 gyro anymore.
I'd spin it until I got proficient at the recovery or proficient at
avoiding a spin if it stalled. If you don't do that, your envelope is
pretty narrow.

BWB




Lancairs are cool planes, it's too bad this happened. I'm sure your right on
the insurance deal. Not that it matters but I'm surprised Lancair didn't
certify the new 350 and 400 with the parachute like Cirrus just for
insurance purposes.

As far as the fuel exhaustion deal, the articles did mention that witnesses
said the engine wasn't running at times and lack of fire in the photos so it
seems.

On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 18:46:16 GMT, "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
wrote:

Fuel exhaustion? Seems plausible.

Nah, there would have been a mayday call or something if they had just ran
out of gas.

Not necessarily... the pilot may not have known the actual fuel state,
depending on how accurate the gauges were or how well they were working at
the time of the accident. If the engine quit suddenly, things might have
happened too fast for a mayday.

The apparent lack of post-impact fire really argues for no fuel onboard.

The one article has a witness statement that I think could be telling:
"The plane appeared to be flying normally, flat, and then went up like it
was trying to go higher, went into a spiral and crashed into the ground."

Sounds to me like the pilot or passenger could have accidentally hit the
control stick, pitched the plane up suddenly and set her into a spin.
(assuming the witness is reliable).

Certainly a possibility, though it's not a common accident mode. It's
tough to accidentally pull a stick back hard, but it could have been
knocked forward and the pitch-up was from over-reaction. Seems a bit of a
reach, though.

You're certainly right about witness reliability. Back when the second
Wheeler Express prototype crashed on its way to Oshkosh, they had an
eyewitness on the local news. The guy said that the plane "fluttered down,
definitely NOT in a spin." And, of course, the plane WAS in a spin...it's
just that the non-pilot observer didn't recognize it.

Let's see what the NTSB preliminary has to say...

Ron Wanttaja

(Badwater Bill) wrote in message ...


Most of the rich guys who buy them are
doctors, not test pilots. And, it's those weekend types that get
killed when the thing departs from it's normal flight characteristics.


You sound like the guy to answer a question I've had for a long time.
You know the old saw about doctors and Bonanzas. I've always wondered
if it was true. Now you state essentially the same about
Lancairs...it's doctors (of course they are richer than anyone else
who flies) who "fly them and get killed." Assuming you know what
you're talking about, what percent of Lancairs are owned by doctors,
and what percent of fatal Lancair accidents involve doctor pilots as
opposed to any other profession of pilot? Also, using any definition
of rich you wish, are doctor pilots any richer than lawyer pilots,
business man pilots,etc. I have no bone to pick here other than
wanting to know whether this stereotyping is justified. I won't know
unless you or anyone else can back it up with referenced statistics.

"lowflyer" wrote in message
om...
(Badwater Bill) wrote in message
...

You sound like the guy to answer a question I've had for a long time.
You know the old saw about doctors and Bonanzas. I've always wondered
if it was true.

That would be a complex study indeed.

Do you know many doctors? Many of them do indeed make a lot of money, but
they also work long and stressful hours. This tends to result in pilots who
don't fly enough yet can afford expensive fast airplanes. A fast plane gets
"ahead" of you much quicker than a slow one. Now add in complex avionics
(which take a lot of practice to master) and you get a dangerous mixture.

There is no absolute "true" or "false" to the old saw, as you put it. There
are only tendencies and probabilities. Each person is different. I happen
to know a doctor who is a fantastic pilot and as precise and meticulous as
can be. But there are othere (and not just MDs) who allow themselves to get
way too rusty yet still hop right into the cockpit and launch into difficult
conditions. The difference with those in the higher earnings brackets is
that they can buy, and thus have control over, much more advanced aircraft
than most people. Those who can't afford to own and control such a plane
must rent, and high performance rentals are much harder to find, and when
found, have strict currency and checkout requirements which must be met
before a flight can occur.

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 01:26:46 GMT, Ron Wanttaja
wrote:

On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 18:46:16 GMT, "Thomas J. Paladino Jr."
wrote:

Fuel exhaustion? Seems plausible.

Nah, there would have been a mayday call or something if they had just ran
out of gas.

Not necessarily... the pilot may not have known the actual fuel state,
depending on how accurate the gauges were or how well they were working at
the time of the accident. If the engine quit suddenly, things might have
happened too fast for a mayday.

The apparent lack of post-impact fire really argues for no fuel onboard.

True, but one witness said he heard the what sounded like high RPM, or
something to that effect. That and they were only about 15 minutes
out from the start of a very long cross country. (The first 50 miles
of a 1000 mile trip)


The one article has a witness statement that I think could be telling:
"The plane appeared to be flying normally, flat, and then went up like it
was trying to go higher, went into a spiral and crashed into the ground."

Sounds to me like the pilot or passenger could have accidentally hit the
control stick, pitched the plane up suddenly and set her into a spin.
(assuming the witness is reliable).

Lots of things could have happened and at this point it is all
speculation. Control failure, Pilot problem, They had apparently
gone through some heavier weather at the start of the flight, but
again that is at least second or third hand. If they got that plastic
airplane in hail, or a thunderstorm, again lots of things can happen.
Even a piece of heavy baggage coming loose


Certainly a possibility, though it's not a common accident mode. It's
tough to accidentally pull a stick back hard, but it could have been
knocked forward and the pitch-up was from over-reaction. Seems a bit of a
reach, though.

Side stick in the IV-P. I don't remember if it's a joy stick, or true
side stick. I flew a Cozy that had a joystick just like a video game
and it was a joy to fly. I found I don't like the side sticks like
the Cirrus uses.


You're certainly right about witness reliability. Back when the second
Wheeler Express prototype crashed on its way to Oshkosh, they had an
eyewitness on the local news. The guy said that the plane "fluttered down,
definitely NOT in a spin." And, of course, the plane WAS in a spin...it's
just that the non-pilot observer didn't recognize it.

Let's see what the NTSB preliminary has to say...

From the photos the parts are all pretty much in the same spot, just
not attached and in pretty poor shape.

And as you say... Let's see what the NTSB has to say.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com



Ron Wanttaja

"lowflyer" wrote in message
om...
(Badwater Bill) wrote in message
...


Most of the rich guys who buy them are
doctors, not test pilots. And, it's those weekend types that get
killed when the thing departs from it's normal flight characteristics.


You sound like the guy to answer a question I've had for a long time.
You know the old saw about doctors and Bonanzas. I've always wondered
if it was true. Now you state essentially the same about
Lancairs...it's doctors (of course they are richer than anyone else
who flies) who "fly them and get killed." Assuming you know what
you're talking about, what percent of Lancairs are owned by doctors,
and what percent of fatal Lancair accidents involve doctor pilots as
opposed to any other profession of pilot? Also, using any definition
of rich you wish, are doctor pilots any richer than lawyer pilots,
business man pilots,etc. I have no bone to pick here other than
wanting to know whether this stereotyping is justified. I won't know
unless you or anyone else can back it up with referenced statistics.

A neurosurgeon saved himself and 3 skiing buddies by putting his V35 down on
route 7 near Rutland, VT. The Bo's engine quit a week after an annual. He
flew it beneath an overpass and only slightly damaged one wing. All aboard
walked away unhurt. I don't have the link, but if you google some of the
terms above, you can find Newsday's account. The article didn't say how may
hours he had, but this doctor obviously knew what he was doing.

"lowflyer" wrote in message
om...
(Badwater Bill) wrote in message
...


Most of the rich guys who buy them are
doctors, not test pilots. And, it's those weekend types that get
killed when the thing departs from it's normal flight characteristics.

As a test pilot (military trained) I ended up working with a civil
airworthiness authority and have test flown about 50 hombuilt types. There
are a large number of homebuilts out there with appalling handling
characteristics in terms of stability, control, and stall characteristics.
In many cases the homebuilt community considers that these characteristics
are the price you pay for "performance".
In fact, many have characteristics that the military would simple not
accepted in their aircraft unless the performance boost so far outweighed
the flight safety issues that national defence was deemed more important.
The characteristics would certainly not be acceptable for civil
certification.
I have flown, stalled and spun high performance jet aircraft which are pussy
cats compared to some homebuilts.
The not so competent "rich" will kill themselves irrespective, but a number
of competent pilots will die in homebuilts simply because the handling
characteristics of many of these aircraft are well below that acceptable for
even hot shot military pilots.
While many people think of these homebuilts as "high performance" don't
forget that plenty of 18 -19 year old kids with a couple of hundred hours
total have successfully flown aircraft with far higher performance than the
odd Lancair or Glassair etc during military flight training.
Even a test pilot should not have to demonstrate test pilot skill and
ability just to go and have fun in a "high performance" homebuilt.
Irrespective of the above, I have no opinion on the Lancair accident.

Cheers,
Chris