Does everyone teach this way?

Does everbody teach soaring the same way? If so, excuse me while I
step outside and scream.

I've had 24 flights with 4 different instructors at two different
schools. (I switched schools quickly after realizing that there are
some places where humans were not meant to be in August) The
instruction mode all four used I describe is "I'll tell you what to do
but I'm not going to tell you how to do it". After I screw up a few
times, figure out enough of what happened to ask an intelligent
question, they will tell me how to do it. What I want to know is why
the bleep don't they tell me in the first place?

I understand aviation is 100 years old and that instruction techniques
have had more than enough time to be refined, and I have no doubt that
the instruction mode I've encountered is the most successful at
turning the most people into pilots. I also know there are other
modes of learning, like 1) Be told and then do, 2) Be shown and then
do, 3) Do and correct or be corrected (aka Trial and Error), 4) Some
mixture of 1-3. I'm sure there are others, but it's been too long
since I took Psych 101.

So, is learning to fly always in the mode I've encountered? Will it
do any good to convince my instructor that I respond best to other
modes of learning?

(Dancebert) wrote in message
So, is learning to fly always in the mode I've encountered? Will it
do any good to convince my instructor that I respond best to other
modes of learning?

It would be beneficial to know what make and model glider you are flying.
And also if you had a similar problem with your instructors when you
were learning to fly hang gliders?

Schweizer 2-33

No problems with my HG instructors of any sort. Both the manuals and
instruction was clear on the step by step process of what I was trying
to do.


On 20 Oct 2003 14:50:08 -0700, (Soarin) wrote:

(Dancebert) wrote in message
So, is learning to fly always in the mode I've encountered? Will it
do any good to convince my instructor that I respond best to other
modes of learning?

It would be beneficial to know what make and model glider you are flying.
And also if you had a similar problem with your instructors when you
were learning to fly hang gliders?

(Dancebert) wrote in message . com...
Does everbody teach soaring the same way? If so, excuse me while I
step outside and scream.

I've had 24 flights with 4 different instructors at two different
schools. (I switched schools quickly after realizing that there are
some places where humans were not meant to be in August) The
instruction mode all four used I describe is "I'll tell you what to do
but I'm not going to tell you how to do it". After I screw up a few
times, figure out enough of what happened to ask an intelligent
question, they will tell me how to do it. What I want to know is why
the bleep don't they tell me in the first place?

I cannot speak for other instructors, but I remember using a similar
method for certain situations. A hundred or so years ago when I taught
hang gliding, and I had first day students, I would put the bagged
glider on the ground, and tell the 4 or 5 of them, "go ahead, set it
up". They would say, "how"? I would say, "figure it out". The results
were always comical, but eventually they would learn about all the
parts, break the ice between themselves with teamwork, and get it set
up. Sometimes upside down. Rather than me saying "put this here", they
had to examine the whole contraption and it's parts, and they would
learn a great deal more than if I showed them.
You can tell a good instructor by what he doesn't tell you sometimes.
I never "taught anyone to fly", but I have guided many students safely
while they learned it on their own, so to speak. That was my job. To
keep you alive & guide you while you learn. One power-to-glider
transition pilot, on his first out of control attempt at aerotow said,
" I can't believe it's so hard, I read the book"!
You will learn more & better what you figure out on your own, than
what somebody tells you.
Having said all that, and not knowing the particulars, maybe you just
found crummy instructors? Or maybe your a crummy student? (nothing
personal)
Find the instructor you get along with best, & schedual with him/her
exclusively, even if you have to miss a few days. Jumping around to
different instructors can easily double your time-to-solo. And stick
with it, it's definatly worth it.
-Dan

On 20 Oct 2003 15:39:23 -0700, (Buck Wild) wrote:
.....
I never "taught anyone to fly", but I have guided many students safely
while they learned it on their own, so to speak. That was my job.
....
You will learn more & better what you figure out on your own, than
what somebody tells you.
....

That's what it seems like they're doing. I have no doubt it works,
but there are times when I think it would be so much easier to not
have to figure it out on my own. But I also acknowledge I'm a newbie
who's just past the completely cluless stage.

Hmmm... The 'figure it out on your own' part often leads to
adrenalin surges and occasionally by the instructor making
corrections. I can see there is value in the instructor seeing how
the student reacts when things don't go as expected or start to get
out of hand. Does he systematically try to regain control? Does he
flail and wimper? Does he freeze? Maybe everything is going as
planned.

To
Having said all that, and not knowing the particulars, maybe you just
found crummy instructors?
Not very likely. The first place I tried came recommened to me by a
former national champion and also by someone who is an SHA Officer.

Or maybe your a crummy student? (nothing personal)
Entirely possible.

I agree... that has the side effect of making every flight seem like an exam
instead of a lesson. You ask a question, and instead of an answer or a hint,
you get "What do you think?" I understand that the instructor's job is to
simultaneously instruct and assess, but sometimes we just need an answer to
the question. Maybe the test-to-question ratio should go up dramatically as
you approach solo and flight test, but early on we need to be able to ask
and get answers.

That's why I've been doing some practice on a flight simulator program,
although I realize there are many drawbacks to it. It's a way to get some
practice time alone, to figure some of that stuff out.

You will learn more & better what you figure out on your own, than
what somebody tells you.
...

That's what it seems like they're doing. I have no doubt it works,
but there are times when I think it would be so much easier to not
have to figure it out on my own. But I also acknowledge I'm a newbie
who's just past the completely cluless stage.

I couldn't get a straight answer as to what sort of stick and/or
rudder movement was needed to produce a specific desired result, so I
bought a simulator, a stick and some pedals. It helped a lot at the
very first, haven't used it much since then.

Now, I see that they wanted me to discover the answer through trial
and error. I jsut did it at my PC.

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 04:51:02 GMT, "Roger Worden"
wrote:
....
That's why I've been doing some practice on a flight simulator program,
although I realize there are many drawbacks to it. It's a way to get some
practice time alone, to figure some of that stuff out.
....

Dancebert dancebert @ yahoo R E MOVE .com wrote in message . ..
On 20 Oct 2003 15:39:23 -0700, (Buck Wild) wrote:
....
I never "taught anyone to fly", but I have guided many students safely
while they learned it on their own, so to speak. That was my job.
...
You will learn more & better what you figure out on your own, than
what somebody tells you.
...

That's what it seems like they're doing. I have no doubt it works,
but there are times when I think it would be so much easier to not
have to figure it out on my own. But I also acknowledge I'm a newbie
who's just past the completely cluless stage.

Hmmm... The 'figure it out on your own' part often leads to
adrenalin surges and occasionally by the instructor making
corrections. I can see there is value in the instructor seeing how
the student reacts when things don't go as expected or start to get
out of hand. Does he systematically try to regain control? Does he
flail and wimper? Does he freeze? Maybe everything is going as
planned.

To
Having said all that, and not knowing the particulars, maybe you just
found crummy instructors?
Not very likely. The first place I tried came recommened to me by a
former national champion and also by someone who is an SHA Officer.

Or maybe your a crummy student? (nothing personal)
Entirely possible.


I should add that it's not as simple as folding your arms in the back
seat & letting the poor guy figure everything out on his own. This
method is just one in my bag of tricks that I use when it's
appropriate. A good instructor knows when to add more instruction, &
when to kick back. This was 10 times more difficult for hang gliding
than for sailplanes, since once a student launces a hang glider, he's
solo every flight. You couldn't add more instruction until they land,
and you can't have them crashing, and you saying "figure it out, try
it again".
one of the most valuable things I've learned is that everyone learns a
little differently, and the real trick (for the instructor) is when a
student gets stuck on something, and your instruction isn't working,
you need to change your instruction method to adapt to the individual,
and figure out what it is that the student needs for that particular
person to "get it".
I myself have been "tricked" into learning by a wize & wiley sage on
occasion. Seems I learn best when I don't know Im getting a "lesson",
and Im not real good with "book" learning. Im the opposite type, who
might tell an instructor to shut up & let me figure it out. At least
until I master a certain plateau and need some guidance to progress to
the next level.
Im not sure if any of this helps, I just know that showing isn't
teaching, and copying isn't learning. Like I said, better to find a
teacher you like & get along with, and filter for usefull information,
than a great teacher that you can't understand.
Teaching was the hardest I've ever worked for the least amount of
cash, though I can go flying & always find people who took their first
flight with me who are highly skilled pilots now. A reward that keeps
on giving.
Good luck with the lessons.
-Dan
Stratus V
109 Aeros Stealth Comp

What part of the world are you in? (RAS/Usenet is world wide !)

Can you give some examples of "I'll tell you what to do"
instructions that you've received ?

What aspects of flying are you having difficulty with (or your
instructors think you're having difficulty with)?

2) Be shown and then do,

That is how I was taught both power and gliding. Most subjects should
also be briefed on the *ground* before getting up into the air.

There is a ton of info on aviation on the 'net. For "primary" flight
control, you can use most of power aircraft theory, i.e. "flying by
attitude / reference to the horizon", navigation, aerodynamics.

Here's one great site to start with http://www.av8n.com/how/

Mike

On 20 Oct 2003 15:43:03 -0700, (Mike Stramba)
wrote:

What part of the world are you in? (RAS/Usenet is world wide !)
Los Angeles

Can you give some examples of "I'll tell you what to do"
instructions that you've received ?
Slips, stalls, turning stalls, stalls with spoilers, boxing the wake,
flying at minimum sink, 60 degree bank turns, speed control, etc.


What aspects of flying are you having difficulty with (or your
instructors think you're having difficulty with)?

Speed control. Boxing the wake when it's turbulant. Approaches and
landings characterized by sufficient brain overloaded that I fail to
pay attention to something I should be attending to. Attending to
variometer while on tow, and if I do, remembering two minutes later
where the lift was. Consistently flying ahead of the plane.