Glider weight

I am in the process of buying my first glider. I have
been looking on a few. Should I expect the current
owner to have document signed by a FAA inspector (or
someone similar) stating the weight of the glider?
How do I know the weight is what the owner is telling
me?

Regards

Earlier, Miguel Lavalle wrote:

I am in the process of buying my first glider. I have
been looking on a few. Should I expect the current
owner to have document signed by a FAA inspector (or
someone similar) stating the weight of the glider?
How do I know the weight is what the owner is telling
me?

Someone has probably beaten me to this one, but:

You can expect that as part of the standard AR(R)OW
documents, the paperwork must include something (placards,
charts, or a document) that states the current empty
weight and empty CG location as determined either by
actual weighing or by calculation. However, that document
is not maintained or signed off on by the FAA, and
I don't think that you can expect it to be contractually
binding.

The only way you can be certain of the empty weight
is to make a weighing and CG determination part of
your pre-buy inspection.

I have a hard time imagining that a seller would deliberately
mis-represent the weight of the aircraft. However,
I know that a lot of glider owners and sellers don't
have any particular certainty about what their glider
weighs. I do know that aircraft do tend to get heavier
just by sitting around; I think that they somehow accumulate
some of the interstellar 'dark matter' that physicists
are always nattering about.

Bob K.

a "certified" weight and balance must be in the aircraft documents.. either
the POH or the aircraft logs.. the weight and balance is certified by either
(1) factory or (2) an IA (cert mechanic).

some aircraft POH require a "re-weigh" every 5yrs.. and that has never been
complied with..

if the seller can not show you a proper (signed by IA) weight and balance in
the aircraft maint logs, (aircraft placards don't count), the a proper
weight and balance as part of the pre-buy inspection is on order..

if the seller does not agree that a "pre-buy" inspection is needed..

walk away...

BT
"Bob Kuykendall" wrote in message
...
Earlier, Miguel Lavalle wrote:

I am in the process of buying my first glider. I have
been looking on a few. Should I expect the current
owner to have document signed by a FAA inspector (or
someone similar) stating the weight of the glider?
How do I know the weight is what the owner is telling
me?

Someone has probably beaten me to this one, but:

You can expect that as part of the standard AR(R)OW
documents, the paperwork must include something (placards,
charts, or a document) that states the current empty
weight and empty CG location as determined either by
actual weighing or by calculation. However, that document
is not maintained or signed off on by the FAA, and
I don't think that you can expect it to be contractually
binding.

The only way you can be certain of the empty weight
is to make a weighing and CG determination part of
your pre-buy inspection.

I have a hard time imagining that a seller would deliberately
mis-represent the weight of the aircraft. However,
I know that a lot of glider owners and sellers don't
have any particular certainty about what their glider
weighs. I do know that aircraft do tend to get heavier
just by sitting around; I think that they somehow accumulate
some of the interstellar 'dark matter' that physicists
are always nattering about.

Bob K.

BTIZ wrote:
a "certified" weight and balance must be in the aircraft documents.. either
the POH or the aircraft logs.. the weight and balance is certified by either
(1) factory or (2) an IA (cert mechanic).


if the seller can not show you a proper (signed by IA) weight and balance in
the aircraft maint logs, (aircraft placards don't count), the a proper
weight and balance as part of the pre-buy inspection is on order..


I have never heard of the IA requirement. As far as I know
regular ol' A&P (or even just "A" airframe mechanics,
though there are few of these) routinely perform minor
alterations and repairs and create an updated W&B.
If anyone has a reference preventing a common, garden variety
A&P from doing this W&B calculation and signing it,
I'd love to hear it.

I have a hard time imagining that a seller would deliberately
mis-represent the weight of the aircraft. However,
I know that a lot of glider owners and sellers don't
have any particular certainty about what their glider
weighs. I do know that aircraft do tend to get heavier
just by sitting around; I think that they somehow accumulate
some of the interstellar 'dark matter' that physicists
are always nattering about.

Bob K.

Some official weight and balance instructions involve
three weighings. I would suggest NOT doing three weighings
or getting an official W&B during the pre-buy.
I would instead suggest getting an
unofficial W&B (one or two weighings). Then decide if you
wish to buy the aircraft.

It doesn't matter how much it is over the last "officially
calculated" W&B, it only matters whether it is heavier than
a comparably equipped and priced glider. If you can find
the exact same glider for the same price elsewhere, and it
is lighter, buy it. But ALL of these old aircraft are gonna be
over the "calculated" weight. The real question is WHY? Lots of
"repairs" or just lots of instruments? Pounds of dirt in the
inside bottom? A mistake in the math of one of the
mechanics along the way?

If you decide to buy the thing, perhaps you will
decide to do a new official W&B and reduce the
paper useful load of your aircraft by 20-100 pounds.
On the other hand, perhaps you will file the unofficial W&B
in the back of your noggin and fly it using the
last "official" weight and balance. As far as I know,
both options are perfectly legal for most general
aviation aircraft...

My SZD-59 Acro is for sale with or without L-Nav and Model 20 GPS. I have
also removed my personal land out kit which affects weight and balance. A
new weight and balance and annual should be a part or your requirements on
the part of the seller. As a seller I would be expected to provide this data
as a part of the the selling price.

IMHO,
Bob Kibby "old 59A" new "2BK"
--


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"Miguel Lavalle" wrote in message
...
I am in the process of buying my first glider. I have
been looking on a few. Should I expect the current
owner to have document signed by a FAA inspector (or
someone similar) stating the weight of the glider?
How do I know the weight is what the owner is telling
me?

Regards

very true Mark... could be an A&P... could be an IA.. or is that AI..

IIRC.. and A&P can't sign off an annual.. so we always deal with AI.. we
have one in the club anyway..

roger on the "un-official" weighs.. before the pre-buy..
being over the documented weight could be (1) instruments installed but not
added to the documented W&B (2) un documented repairs (3) natural weight
gain of aging gliders..

BT


"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:3fdfcce4$1@darkstar...
BTIZ wrote:
a "certified" weight and balance must be in the aircraft documents..
either
the POH or the aircraft logs.. the weight and balance is certified by
either
(1) factory or (2) an IA (cert mechanic).


if the seller can not show you a proper (signed by IA) weight and balance
in
the aircraft maint logs, (aircraft placards don't count), the a proper
weight and balance as part of the pre-buy inspection is on order..


I have never heard of the IA requirement. As far as I know
regular ol' A&P (or even just "A" airframe mechanics,
though there are few of these) routinely perform minor
alterations and repairs and create an updated W&B.
If anyone has a reference preventing a common, garden variety
A&P from doing this W&B calculation and signing it,
I'd love to hear it.

I have a hard time imagining that a seller would deliberately
mis-represent the weight of the aircraft. However,
I know that a lot of glider owners and sellers don't
have any particular certainty about what their glider
weighs. I do know that aircraft do tend to get heavier
just by sitting around; I think that they somehow accumulate
some of the interstellar 'dark matter' that physicists
are always nattering about.

Bob K.

Some official weight and balance instructions involve
three weighings. I would suggest NOT doing three weighings
or getting an official W&B during the pre-buy.
I would instead suggest getting an
unofficial W&B (one or two weighings). Then decide if you
wish to buy the aircraft.

It doesn't matter how much it is over the last "officially
calculated" W&B, it only matters whether it is heavier than
a comparably equipped and priced glider. If you can find
the exact same glider for the same price elsewhere, and it
is lighter, buy it. But ALL of these old aircraft are gonna be
over the "calculated" weight. The real question is WHY? Lots of
"repairs" or just lots of instruments? Pounds of dirt in the
inside bottom? A mistake in the math of one of the
mechanics along the way?

If you decide to buy the thing, perhaps you will
decide to do a new official W&B and reduce the
paper useful load of your aircraft by 20-100 pounds.
On the other hand, perhaps you will file the unofficial W&B
in the back of your noggin and fly it using the
last "official" weight and balance. As far as I know,
both options are perfectly legal for most general
aviation aircraft...

There is a good brief article titled

'A Quick No Math Technique for Locating the Gross Weight
C.G. of Your Sailplane'

by Stanley A. Hall,
Sunnyvale, California,
in
Soaring Magazine,
September 1997,
page 4.
Good charts, diagrams, logarithmic scales. Well done.

Very short. Simple.

Dancing on clouds,

Keep it up!

Jim Culp USA
GatorCity Florida

Earlier, "BTIZ" wrote:

IIRC.. an[] A&P can't sign off an annual..

True enough for type certificated gliders. However, for most
Experimental/Racing and similar, the operating limitations say the
annual "condition" inspection must be performed per the scope and
detail of FAR Part 43 Appendix D by an A&P or repairman - not
necessarily an AI.

There are actually a great number of gliders in the US operating under
Experimental/Racing or Experimental/Exhibition Special Airworthiness
certificates. Last I checked, that included every ASW-20 in the
country, and a host of other production machines as well.

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com

I just bought a 10 year old glider.
What I checked was the following.
The original Factory test report and empty W &B.
Made sure no major repair was visually apparent.
added the equipment that is installed after the
test report Including batteries plus ~ 5 lb for old age.
If it has been repainted in part or whole add between
7 lb and 15 lb. and your are done.
If a major repair was done it should been documented
and the glider would have been reweight and the new
weight entered into the log.
Udo


I am in the process of buying my first glider. I have
been looking on a few. Should I expect the current
owner to have document signed by a FAA inspector (or
someone similar) stating the weight of the glider?
How do I know the weight is what the owner is telling
me?