Motorglider and Towered Airport

I am kindly requesting any comments or experience with flying a Motor
glider
at an Airport with an Air Traffic Control Tower.

I am in the process of requesting permission to fly at a Towered
Airport
with a Motorglider. Talking to the "Tower guy" has not been easy so
I hope to put together compelling reasons that support the proposed
flights
at the Airport as well as ways to overcome objects that the tower may
propose with regards to the "addition to the traffic mix."

One concern will be Jet Blast… the sailplane that I have is a ASH 26 E
and
comes in at about 1100 lbs ready for takeoff. I would imagine that
spacing
with airliners on the taxi ways and runway similar to that of a J3 cub
or a
Cessna 150 would be adequate.

Another concern will be Wake Turbulence the 18 meter wings do have a
slower roll rate than some of the light aircraft.

Pattern speed for the 26-e (propeller driven) would be 60 to 70 kts. I
would
think this would be similar to other light aircraft as well.

Radio communication is no problem and Transponder is not required.

Taxi ways are ample and the single runway is 11000 ft by 150 ft. so
room is no
problem.

Any experiences, comments or thoughts would be welcome.

Thanks in advance

Steve Barnes

"Steve B" wrote in message
om...

I am in the process of requesting permission to fly at a Towered
Airport
with a Motorglider.

Why are you asking permission? "A meeting of the minds" might possibly
be in order, but I know of no requirement for you to ask permission to fly
anywhere if you have the required equipment. If you do, then you should be
asking for a specific waiver from a specific FAR.

Take this from someone who has made a serious study of Public
Administration, approach these people (if you must) as a customer and
discuss your mutual needs, abilities and resources; but ask for no unneeded
"permission".

Vaughn

"Vaughn" wrote in message
...

"Steve B" wrote in message
om...

I am in the process of requesting permission to fly at a Towered
Airport
with a Motorglider.

Why are you asking permission? "A meeting of the minds" might
possibly
be in order, but I know of no requirement for you to ask permission to fly
anywhere if you have the required equipment. If you do, then you should
be
asking for a specific waiver from a specific FAR.

Take this from someone who has made a serious study of Public
Administration, approach these people (if you must) as a customer and
discuss your mutual needs, abilities and resources; but ask for no
unneeded
"permission".

Vaughn



Agree - just call for a landing or takeoff clearance in the same fashion as
any powered aircraft would. Most light aircraft fly the patterns at around
65 or less just as you would. Keep in mind that you being considerate of the
operations in desiring to better coordinate so as to minimize any adverse
impacts. The tower has no authority to deny you operational access!

Ivan

Why as permission.. as long as you can handle solo taxi.. (wide enough) and
don't need a wing walker or runner.. just go..

If you are not familiar with "tower/radio" operations.. maybe a little dual
in a local flight schools Cessna would be in order. Just to learn the local
airport, it's quirks, and the landmarks the tower uses to sequence aircraft.

They may not be to "happy" (oh well) if you come back sans motor from time
to time, they like to be able to "extend downwind, I'll call your base" and
be able to taxi clear upon landing. Not sitting like a lump on the runway
getting the motor up and running.

Just go do it. Unless this airport has special traffic flow restrictions
because it is "high volume" Like Class B airport. Don't "ask" for what you
already have a right to.

BT

"Steve B" wrote in message
om...
I am kindly requesting any comments or experience with flying a Motor
glider
at an Airport with an Air Traffic Control Tower.

I am in the process of requesting permission to fly at a Towered
Airport
with a Motorglider. Talking to the "Tower guy" has not been easy so
I hope to put together compelling reasons that support the proposed
flights
at the Airport as well as ways to overcome objects that the tower may
propose with regards to the "addition to the traffic mix."

One concern will be Jet Blast. the sailplane that I have is a ASH 26 E
and
comes in at about 1100 lbs ready for takeoff. I would imagine that
spacing
with airliners on the taxi ways and runway similar to that of a J3 cub
or a
Cessna 150 would be adequate.

Another concern will be Wake Turbulence the 18 meter wings do have a
slower roll rate than some of the light aircraft.

Pattern speed for the 26-e (propeller driven) would be 60 to 70 kts. I
would
think this would be similar to other light aircraft as well.

Radio communication is no problem and Transponder is not required.

Taxi ways are ample and the single runway is 11000 ft by 150 ft. so
room is no
problem.

Any experiences, comments or thoughts would be welcome.

Thanks in advance

Steve Barnes

They may not be to "happy" (oh well) if you come back sans motor from time
to time, they like to be able to "extend downwind, I'll call your base" and
be able to taxi clear upon landing. Not sitting like a lump on the runway
getting the motor up and running.

Just go do it. Unless this airport has special traffic flow restrictions
because it is "high volume" Like Class B airport. Don't "ask" for what you
already have a right to.

BT

I'd like to see someone try this at Palomar airport near San Diego.
Son, number 8 for final approach, 13 in the pattern, with
one runway and "S-turns at your discretion" is no way
to go through life... :P

True the rules say if you have an N number you can use the airspace.
However, you'll need access to the airport property with your car and
trailer and you'll need space to rig and de-rig; the airport manager is the
one who can make this easy for you (or difficult). If you **** off the tower
by having to ask for priority or tie up the runway if you can't taxi clear
then I expect that you'll find the airport manager can come up with a bunch
of reasons why you can't get access.

I would recommend starting with a polite visit to the airport manager. Offer
to pay a transient tie down fee for use of the apron while rigging and
de-rigging. Then visit the tower, tell them you have the airport manager's
permission and spend some time discussing how you can fit in with the other
traffic; tell them what the glider can do and what it can't, offer them a
tour of the cockpit. I did this at my local airport and find the tower to be
extremely helpful as a result. I always land in the glider configuration and
have always managed to roll clear without the motor; you might have to
choose a high speed taxiway to avoid a 90deg turn. I have had only a couple
of incidents where I was even slightly uncomfortable; once when asked to
extend downwind way too far and another when asked to go around on short
final, in both instances a simple "unable" was all that was needed to fix
it.

Remember, permission to enter the class D,C or B airspace is not automatic;
you may get "aircraft calling standby" if they're busy. In this case you
need to have a plan of action. Also if you're thinking about landing with
the motor running you should check your flight manual. Mine (DG800B) says
that landing with the engine running is prohibited.

Rgds,

Doug



"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:6RIKb.48286$m83.23774@fed1read01...
Why as permission.. as long as you can handle solo taxi.. (wide enough)
and
don't need a wing walker or runner.. just go..

If you are not familiar with "tower/radio" operations.. maybe a little
dual
in a local flight schools Cessna would be in order. Just to learn the
local
airport, it's quirks, and the landmarks the tower uses to sequence
aircraft.

They may not be to "happy" (oh well) if you come back sans motor from time
to time, they like to be able to "extend downwind, I'll call your base"
and
be able to taxi clear upon landing. Not sitting like a lump on the runway
getting the motor up and running.

Just go do it. Unless this airport has special traffic flow restrictions
because it is "high volume" Like Class B airport. Don't "ask" for what you
already have a right to.

BT

"Steve B" wrote in message
om...
I am kindly requesting any comments or experience with flying a Motor
glider
at an Airport with an Air Traffic Control Tower.

I am in the process of requesting permission to fly at a Towered
Airport
with a Motorglider. Talking to the "Tower guy" has not been easy so
I hope to put together compelling reasons that support the proposed
flights
at the Airport as well as ways to overcome objects that the tower may
propose with regards to the "addition to the traffic mix."

One concern will be Jet Blast. the sailplane that I have is a ASH 26 E
and
comes in at about 1100 lbs ready for takeoff. I would imagine that
spacing
with airliners on the taxi ways and runway similar to that of a J3 cub
or a
Cessna 150 would be adequate.

Another concern will be Wake Turbulence the 18 meter wings do have a
slower roll rate than some of the light aircraft.

Pattern speed for the 26-e (propeller driven) would be 60 to 70 kts. I
would
think this would be similar to other light aircraft as well.

Radio communication is no problem and Transponder is not required.

Taxi ways are ample and the single runway is 11000 ft by 150 ft. so
room is no
problem.

Any experiences, comments or thoughts would be welcome.

Thanks in advance

Steve Barnes

Doug... you are correct about management being able to make your life
easy or not so easy. So it looks like I have a long road to hoe.



I have a request for specific information regarding flying a
motorglider from a single runway airport that has airline traffic. I
have been requested to submit a proposal as to how I would "add a
motorglider to the traffic mix" at a single runway airport that has
local and international airline traffic.

I would greatly appreciate any information that would be helpful
regarding the following:

Examples of Motorglider activity at Towered Airports

Examples of Motorglider activity at a single runway airports

Suggestions on what content to include in a proposal for operating a
motorglider at a single runway airport with a Tower.

My plan of action is to submit a proposal on how I would integrate the
Motorglider to the traffic mix. Then arrange for a demonstration
flight at another airport that is not as busy to at least get things
moving in the right direction.

Kona Airport is Class D Airspace. The FAA folks at FSDO do not believe
that there should be a problem flying there... but the Airport Manager
for my airport has the ability to throw a spanner in the works by
claiming safety or efficient use to try and avoid adding additional
traffic to the mix. In the past they have used that as a hurdle to
jump over for other types of aeronatical activity.

The Airport Manager wants to make it a State Issue and require
airspace studys (read... delay forever) although everything that I can
find about a Federal Funded Airport indicates to me that the FAA has
the final decision. There is a document FAA order 5190.6a that
requires all airports that receive federal funds must allow for all
classes of aeronatical activity and not discriminate. It is a very
helpful reference. One of the few exceptions is for safety and
efficiency. The FAA must then decide of the reasonableness of the
claim of safety and efficency.


The "Tower Guy" on my first call to him regarding the proposed flights
commented "don't bother bringing a motorglider here". So regardless of
the issues that one is going to be an uphill battle. I have had no
luck with talking to the tower.



"Doug Easton" wrote in message thlink.net...
True the rules say if you have an N number you can use the airspace.
However, you'll need access to the airport property with your car and
trailer and you'll need space to rig and de-rig; the airport manager is the
one who can make this easy for you (or difficult). If you **** off the tower
by having to ask for priority or tie up the runway if you can't taxi clear
then I expect that you'll find the airport manager can come up with a bunch
of reasons why you can't get access.

I would recommend starting with a polite visit to the airport manager. Offer
to pay a transient tie down fee for use of the apron while rigging and
de-rigging. Then visit the tower, tell them you have the airport manager's
permission and spend some time discussing how you can fit in with the other
traffic; tell them what the glider can do and what it can't, offer them a
tour of the cockpit. I did this at my local airport and find the tower to be
extremely helpful as a result. I always land in the glider configuration and
have always managed to roll clear without the motor; you might have to
choose a high speed taxiway to avoid a 90deg turn. I have had only a couple
of incidents where I was even slightly uncomfortable; once when asked to
extend downwind way too far and another when asked to go around on short
final, in both instances a simple "unable" was all that was needed to fix
it.

Remember, permission to enter the class D,C or B airspace is not automatic;
you may get "aircraft calling standby" if they're busy. In this case you
need to have a plan of action. Also if you're thinking about landing with
the motor running you should check your flight manual. Mine (DG800B) says
that landing with the engine running is prohibited.

Rgds,

Doug



"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:6RIKb.48286$m83.23774@fed1read01...
Why as permission.. as long as you can handle solo taxi.. (wide enough)
and
don't need a wing walker or runner.. just go..

If you are not familiar with "tower/radio" operations.. maybe a little
dual
in a local flight schools Cessna would be in order. Just to learn the
local
airport, it's quirks, and the landmarks the tower uses to sequence
aircraft.

They may not be to "happy" (oh well) if you come back sans motor from time
to time, they like to be able to "extend downwind, I'll call your base"
and
be able to taxi clear upon landing. Not sitting like a lump on the runway
getting the motor up and running.

Just go do it. Unless this airport has special traffic flow restrictions
because it is "high volume" Like Class B airport. Don't "ask" for what you
already have a right to.

BT

"Steve B" wrote in message
om...
I am kindly requesting any comments or experience with flying a Motor
glider
at an Airport with an Air Traffic Control Tower.

I am in the process of requesting permission to fly at a Towered
Airport
with a Motorglider. Talking to the "Tower guy" has not been easy so
I hope to put together compelling reasons that support the proposed
flights
at the Airport as well as ways to overcome objects that the tower may
propose with regards to the "addition to the traffic mix."

One concern will be Jet Blast. the sailplane that I have is a ASH 26 E
and
comes in at about 1100 lbs ready for takeoff. I would imagine that
spacing
with airliners on the taxi ways and runway similar to that of a J3 cub
or a
Cessna 150 would be adequate.

Another concern will be Wake Turbulence the 18 meter wings do have a
slower roll rate than some of the light aircraft.

Pattern speed for the 26-e (propeller driven) would be 60 to 70 kts. I
would
think this would be similar to other light aircraft as well.

Radio communication is no problem and Transponder is not required.

Taxi ways are ample and the single runway is 11000 ft by 150 ft. so
room is no
problem.

Any experiences, comments or thoughts would be welcome.

Thanks in advance

Steve Barnes

Steve B wrote:
Doug... you are correct about management being able to make your life
easy or not so easy. So it looks like I have a long road to hoe.


Steve,

If you are Steven Perry Barnes, the FAA says you also have an
ASEL license. Hmmm...so there may be some other options.

Just brainstorming, mind you, but perhaps you can recertify your
motorglider as an airplane? Then it's just an experimental airplane...

Also, if you fly out of there once in a regular plane, and show
how professionally you handle everything, when the controllers hear
your voice again they'll know you aren't some yahoo gonna
mess up their sequencing.

From the Airnav picture, it looks like Kona has at least one
high speed taxiway for you to get off. So that is very good.
I suppose the next issue is how to taxi.
If the glider can be taxied without a wingrunner, fine. If not
maybe Century Aviation or Tropicbird or Hawaii flight
academy, etc. can help you with a golf cart, a teenagers with a
reflective vest, and a short rope to taxi you away.

If it were me, I'd get a reflective vest for myself and the line boy,
go out and scout the taxi obstructions with the fire department,
arrange for a golf cart and rope, and pick a time with little
traffic. I'd also check in with the local flight schools and
tell them a plan and ask for input. They are likely to be
the biggest complainers or best allies.

I don't know about Kona, but at Palomar if I was a controller
and someone wanted to fly a motorglider there I'd be livid.
By recollection, the taxiway and runway are so close together too
that I don't know if you could even safely taxi a glider
without wake turbulence being a factor in some areas. And with
the huge optempo (761 ops/day), taxi and landings and takeoffs are
quite challenging to order.

At 329 operations a day, Kona seems pretty packed too. Requesting
a taxiway for takeoff which ISN'T the one everyone else uses seems
a good idea, and using the high speed taxi off after landing should
minimize the grief about cluttering the active. Taxiing the
glider in a safe and efficient way is something else entirely...

Maybe try the whole thing simulated in a power plane first? A
little rehearsal dance for the golf cart and driver, and the
controller, and you?

Just some thoughts...hope they help with creative solutions...

Steve,

This probably won't make much difference to your airport manager, but I once
flew a motorglider, unannounced into and out of Dallas Love Field. And I know
of an FAA inspector who flew his C-150 into DFW airport on a fairly regular
basis.

It was, and is ATC's job to separate traffic, no matter what the type or class.
There's no need to call them and, in effect, ask permission. To ATC, there's
little difference between your motorglider and a Kitfox or a J3 Cub, and I'm
sure the manager doesn't make them jump through the same hoops. It's just
another (all too common) case of someone who doesn't know anything about
gliders or their capability and doesn't want to learn. Just ban them
altogether and the problem goes away.

That said, my recommendation to you is to first, play by the rules that
everyone has to play by. In other words, fit in to the traffic flow just like
there's nothing special.

Some specific examples include the following. Know the ATC lingo and use it in
a professional, courteous way. When taxiing, stay as close behind other
traffic as safely possible. No need to be 1/4 mile behind a C172 because of
propwash. Just like any other aircraft, even airliners, you can refuse takeoff
clearance because of wake turbulence, but be reasonable. Be ready to go when
you're number one, and request an immediate turnout to allow another aircraft
to takeoff ASAP. Have a plan to expedite things before you land. After
landing, clear the runway ASAP.

All that considered, my advise would be to show up unannounced and fly. The
fastest way to teach someone who doesn't want to learn, is to give them
experience. Fly in, get a drink at the FBO, and fly out. Get friendly with
the FSDO people and ask an inspector to observe your arrival and departure, and
report back to superiors. With a, hopefully neutral witness, your case can be
strengthened. Be friendly, not demanding.

One more point, Federal law is in force here, not state law. Remember that the
airport manager will use any tactic he can, to intimidate you into going away.
As was said in a previous post, if they take federal funds, they can't refuse
you. If they threaten you with something, ask them in a polite and humble way
to show you where to find the reg that they're referring to.

Mark Keene

MKEENE221 wrote:




One more point, Federal law is in force here, not state law. Remember that the
airport manager will use any tactic he can, to intimidate you into going away.
As was said in a previous post, if they take federal funds, they can't refuse
you.

They can't refuse you the use of the runway and taxiways. But can't
they refuse you road access to the airport, or the use of the apron for
assembly?


If they threaten you with something, ask them in a polite and humble way
to show you where to find the reg that they're referring to.


Mark Keene