Towplane performance

Our operation has started the hunt for a new towplane.
The main criteria is that from our 2200ft strip at sea level we need
to have a two seater (janus) "over the fence" at 300ft in still air.

What would you recommend?
Dont dwell on purchase cost but rather performance/running costs

We would consider
a) Used
b) New
c) Experimental/anything else.

Thanks for your thorts.

Our operation has started the hunt for a new towplane.
The main criteria is that from our 2200ft strip at sea level we need
to have a two seater (janus) "over the fence" at 300ft in still air.

What would you recommend?
Dont dwell on purchase cost but rather performance/running costs

We would consider
a) Used
b) New
c) Experimental/anything else.

Thanks for your thorts.

Roy,

You say that you´re looking for a new towplane! What type did you operate so
far?
A 2200ft strip at sea level and 300ft over the fence in still air with a
Janus in the tow sounds like a challlenge!
I was towed by many different towplanes, but there are very few which can do
that reliably!
One, which can do the job is a YAK-55 though....however, not the usual kind
of towplane!
Check this:

http://tinyurl.com/6jcdt

I tow with our clubs Husky and on our 1600ft strip (1950ft above msl) we are
talking more like 50ft "over the fence" (and much less in the summer) with a
DG-1000 in the tow.

Good luk,
Markus

We have a Pawnee 235HP, most common of tow planes.. there are also 260HP
versions.
Also a CalAir tow plane may work.

We operate from a 2833MSL airport, 3500ft long runway.. normally glider
starts from about 500ft, so that leaves 3000ft of runway to go.. on hot
summer days.. with a 2-33 or a Grob 103 in tow at MaxGW.. we can plan on
200ft at the departure end.

Looking for 300ft in the air at departure end, in a Janus (assume two seats
loaded) at max GW take off from a 2200ft long runway is very optimistic.

I'm not sure what the performance would be with the Wilga... but I'm
guessing not much better.

BT

"Markus Feyerabend" wrote in message
...

Our operation has started the hunt for a new towplane.
The main criteria is that from our 2200ft strip at sea level we need
to have a two seater (janus) "over the fence" at 300ft in still air.

What would you recommend?
Dont dwell on purchase cost but rather performance/running costs

We would consider
a) Used
b) New
c) Experimental/anything else.

Thanks for your thorts.

Roy,

You say that you´re looking for a new towplane! What type did you operate
so
far?
A 2200ft strip at sea level and 300ft over the fence in still air with a
Janus in the tow sounds like a challlenge!
I was towed by many different towplanes, but there are very few which can
do
that reliably!
One, which can do the job is a YAK-55 though....however, not the usual
kind
of towplane!
Check this:

http://tinyurl.com/6jcdt

I tow with our clubs Husky and on our 1600ft strip (1950ft above msl) we
are
talking more like 50ft "over the fence" (and much less in the summer) with
a
DG-1000 in the tow.

Good luk,
Markus

In article SPI3e.2906$ZV5.894@fed1read05,
"BTIZ" wrote:

Looking for 300ft in the air at departure end, in a Janus (assume two seats
loaded) at max GW take off from a 2200ft long runway is very optimistic.

Our 260 HP Pawnees normally get around 600 fpm at 65 knots with a Janus
(or Grob Twin for that matter) with two people. That's a climb angle of
about 1:11. OK, so you can get a better angle with a slower speeed, but
not *that* much better.

300 ft AGL after 2200 ft is a climb angle of nearly 1:7. The actual
1:11 a Pawnee gives would give you 200 ft AGL after 2200 ft. And that's
assuming that you *start* with runway already with full flying speed.
In reaily you're going to need about half the runway just to get up to
climb speed. And then you're going to have to climb at about 2000 fpm.

Not going to happen.


I'm not sure what the performance would be with the Wilga... but I'm
guessing not much better.

When we tried a Wilga at our club we found that the tow turnaround was
shorter, but it was because the Wilga came down faster not because it
went up faster.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

I can't think of any regularly used towplane that will
achieve what you want. A 260 hp Pawnee will probaly
launch a Janus safely in anything but a significant
tail-wind component, but you won't usually get 300
feet over the fence, except on cool, windy days. Why
do you need the 300 foot margin?

At 22:30 02 April 2005, Roy wrote:
Our operation has started the hunt for a new towplane.
The main criteria is that from our 2200ft strip at
sea level we need
to have a two seater (janus) 'over the fence' at 300ft
in still air.

What would you recommend?
Dont dwell on purchase cost but rather performance/running
costs

We would consider
a) Used
b) New
c) Experimental/anything else.

Thanks for your thorts.

Chris Rollings wrote:

I can't think of any regularly used towplane that will
achieve what you want.

A Pilatus PC6 will do this just nicely. Ok, agreed, not exactly a
"regularly used towplane".

Stefan

It sounds like you don't want a plane, you want an
engine.

How about a
G-164 Super Ag Cat C with a 600hp turbine? Looks like
they are $50,000 US maybe?

The aggies love 'em, so they can't be TOO pricey for
maint.
Fuel cost is maybe a bit higher, but you specified
PERFORMANCE, right? Gotta pay SOMETHING for that...


A nice experimental sticker and a towhook/looksie by

whatever govt. agency and bzzzz...you're off!

Good luck...I hope the propwash doesn't blow the wings
off...
maybe use a longer towrope? :P

At 07:30 03 April 2005, Chris Rollings wrote:
I can't think of any regularly used towplane that will
achieve what you want. A 260 hp Pawnee will probaly
launch a Janus safely in anything but a significant
tail-wind component, but you won't usually get 300
feet over the fence, except on cool, windy days. Why
do you need the 300 foot margin?

At 22:30 02 April 2005, Roy wrote:
Our operation has started the hunt for a new towplane.
The main criteria is that from our 2200ft strip at
sea level we need
to have a two seater (janus) 'over the fence' at 300ft
in still air.

What would you recommend?
Dont dwell on purchase cost but rather performance/running
costs

We would consider
a) Used
b) New
c) Experimental/anything else.

Thanks for your thorts.





Mark J. Boyd

In article ,
Stefan wrote:

Chris Rollings wrote:

I can't think of any regularly used towplane that will
achieve what you want.

A Pilatus PC6 will do this just nicely. Ok, agreed, not exactly a
"regularly used towplane".

Don't forget the NZ turbine cropduster offshoot being sold for
skydiving, the PAC 750XL:

http://www.utilityaircraft.com/

Brake release to 12,000 ft takes 12 minutes with a 2 tonne load. The
plane without the skydivers (but with fuel & pilot) weighs 1400 kg, so
it can presumably climb at over 2000 fpm lightly loaded.

Ground roll at MTOW is 1244 ft, so presumably considerably less at
light weights.


Biggest problem: best rate of climb is at 95 knots, best angle is at 85
knots.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

It certainly looks like it could do the job....however
not sure which club wants to own the first $500k+ towplane




At 14:00 03 April 2005, Bruce Hoult wrote:
In article ,
Stefan wrote:

Chris Rollings wrote:

I can't think of any regularly used towplane that
will
achieve what you want.

A Pilatus PC6 will do this just nicely. Ok, agreed,
not exactly a
'regularly used towplane'.

Don't forget the NZ turbine cropduster offshoot being
sold for
skydiving, the PAC 750XL:

http://www.utilityaircraft.com/

Brake release to 12,000 ft takes 12 minutes with a
2 tonne load. The
plane without the skydivers (but with fuel & pilot)
weighs 1400 kg, so
it can presumably climb at over 2000 fpm lightly loaded.

Ground roll at MTOW is 1244 ft, so presumably considerably
less at
light weights.


Biggest problem: best rate of climb is at 95 knots,
best angle is at 85
knots.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

I learned behind a 180 hp Super Cub and remember seeing loaded glider and
tow plane off the ground in 3-500 feet depending on wind. plenty fast climb
too.
we were operating out of the middle of a 3000 ' strip so demos coul depart
and arrive at the same place either direction. I understand that there was
an STC for 200 hp on the sme airframe and the extra 20 hp ought to really do
the job on the Janus. Only problem is that Supr Cubs bring a premium these
days.
Cheers!

"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message ...
It certainly looks like it could do the job....however
not sure which club wants to own the first $500k+ towplane




At 14:00 03 April 2005, Bruce Hoult wrote:
In article ,
Stefan wrote:

Chris Rollings wrote:

I can't think of any regularly used towplane that
will
achieve what you want.

A Pilatus PC6 will do this just nicely. Ok, agreed,
not exactly a
'regularly used towplane'.

Don't forget the NZ turbine cropduster offshoot being
sold for
skydiving, the PAC 750XL:

http://www.utilityaircraft.com/

Brake release to 12,000 ft takes 12 minutes with a
2 tonne load. The
plane without the skydivers (but with fuel & pilot)
weighs 1400 kg, so
it can presumably climb at over 2000 fpm lightly loaded.

Ground roll at MTOW is 1244 ft, so presumably considerably
less at
light weights.


Biggest problem: best rate of climb is at 95 knots,
best angle is at 85
knots.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------