New Battery Type?

Winter is coming and it is time to get the annual Battery / Battery Charger discussion going.
I ran across this ad for a new (to me) battery type. It is a Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (LiNiMnCoO2) chemistry and the Ah rating the mfg claims is phenomenal.
Has anybody seen or even used this type already?

http://www.millenair.nl/shop/batteri....4v-20.5ah-nmc

Uli
'AS'

El jueves, 26 de noviembre de 2020 a la(s) 00:27:24 UTC-3, AS escribió:
Winter is coming and it is time to get the annual Battery / Battery Charger discussion going.
I ran across this ad for a new (to me) battery type. It is a Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (LiNiMnCoO2) chemistry and the Ah rating the mfg claims is phenomenal.
Has anybody seen or even used this type already?

http://www.millenair.nl/shop/batteri....4v-20.5ah-nmc

Uli
'AS'

Yes, i made 3 packs for a guy who owns a discus with a lot of avionics and no place for much batteries.
He is reselling one (in Argentina) because with two has enough power to fly 24h transmitting with the radio.
The packs are made with the same cells that I have on the grasshopper and in most of the electric propulsion projects with the exception of FES that uses KOKAM cells.
The only thing that you need to look up before installing is the compatibility of your avionics with the output voltage.
And of course, taking good care of the packs.

At 04:38 26 November 2020, wrote:
El jueves, 26 de noviembre de 2020 a la(s) 00:27:24 UTC-3, AS
escribi=C3=B3=
:
Winter is coming and it is time to get the annual Battery / Battery
Charg=
er discussion going.=20
I ran across this ad for a new (to me) battery type. It is a Lithium
Nick=
el Manganese Cobalt Oxide (LiNiMnCoO2) chemistry and the Ah rating
the mfg
=
claims is phenomenal.=20
Has anybody seen or even used this type already?=20
=20

http://www.millenair.nl/shop/batteri...equipment/nmc-
batteries=
/airnergy-14.4v-20.5ah-nmc=20
=20
Uli=20
'AS'

Yes, i made 3 packs for a guy who owns a discus with a lot of avionics
and
=
no place for much batteries.
He is reselling one (in Argentina) because with two has enough power
to
fly=
24h transmitting with the radio.
The packs are made with the same cells that I have on the grasshopper
and
i=
n most of the electric propulsion projects with the exception of FES that
u=
ses KOKAM cells.
The only thing that you need to look up before installing is the
compatibil=
ity of your avionics with the output voltage.
And of course, taking good care of the packs.
We have been using an NMC 20AH battery in our Arcus for the last year
running LX9000 F and R plus a radio and so far our longest flight has
been 7 hours bat then 14V so looks like 8 Hours possible, our 12v
LiF3PO4 only gave us 3.5Hrs, take care as initial voltage is approx 16v

On Thursday, 26 November 2020 at 12:30:06 UTC, Richard Large wrote:
At 04:38 26 November 2020, wrote:
El jueves, 26 de noviembre de 2020 a la(s) 00:27:24 UTC-3, AS
escribi=C3=B3=
:
Winter is coming and it is time to get the annual Battery / Battery
Charg=
er discussion going.=20
I ran across this ad for a new (to me) battery type. It is a Lithium
Nick=
el Manganese Cobalt Oxide (LiNiMnCoO2) chemistry and the Ah rating
the mfg
=
claims is phenomenal.=20
Has anybody seen or even used this type already?=20
=20

http://www.millenair.nl/shop/batteri...equipment/nmc-
batteries=
/airnergy-14.4v-20.5ah-nmc=20
=20
Uli=20
'AS'

Yes, i made 3 packs for a guy who owns a discus with a lot of avionics
and
=
no place for much batteries.
He is reselling one (in Argentina) because with two has enough power
to
fly=
24h transmitting with the radio.
The packs are made with the same cells that I have on the grasshopper
and
i=
n most of the electric propulsion projects with the exception of FES that
u=
ses KOKAM cells.
The only thing that you need to look up before installing is the
compatibil=
ity of your avionics with the output voltage.
And of course, taking good care of the packs.
We have been using an NMC 20AH battery in our Arcus for the last year
running LX9000 F and R plus a radio and so far our longest flight has
been 7 hours bat then 14V so looks like 8 Hours possible, our 12v
LiF3PO4 only gave us 3.5Hrs, take care as initial voltage is approx 16v

I'll stick with LFP batteries. Apart from the price there are considerable human and environmental costs of current cobalt production, most of which comes from the DRC. Its no surprise that e.g. Tesla are trying move on from cobalt in their batteries.

I have used such a battery since July. Works just fine for me in my ASG 32 Mi with lots of electronic stuff.

/Robert

On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 11:19:57 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I have used such a battery since July. Works just fine for me in my ASG 32 Mi with lots of electronic stuff.

/Robert

So there is already some operational experience with this type of batteries, which is good to hear. The warnings about the initially high voltage of 16+V is well taken. I checked the spec's of the stuff I have on and behind my panel and most of it is limited to only 15V.
That would lead me to more follow-up questions for the experts:
- what would happen if this battery was charged with only 15V?
- if the above is not advisable, would the use of an electronic voltage regulator like this one be an option?
https://vetco.net/products/dc-dc-adj...kaAnEdEALw_wcB
- I am not familiar with this type of electronics but reading the specifications of it, I see a 'Ripple Frequency' of 150kHz on the output. Could that mess up the electronics?

Thanks for any constructive replies.

Uli
'AS'

AS wrote on 11/26/2020 8:59 AM:
On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 11:19:57 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I have used such a battery since July. Works just fine for me in my ASG 32 Mi with lots of electronic stuff.

/Robert

So there is already some operational experience with this type of batteries, which is good to hear. The warnings about the initially high voltage of 16+V is well taken. I checked the spec's of the stuff I have on and behind my panel and most of it is limited to only 15V.
That would lead me to more follow-up questions for the experts:
- what would happen if this battery was charged with only 15V?
- if the above is not advisable, would the use of an electronic voltage regulator like this one be an option?
https://vetco.net/products/dc-dc-adj...kaAnEdEALw_wcB
- I am not familiar with this type of electronics but reading the specifications of it, I see a 'Ripple Frequency' of 150kHz on the output. Could that mess up the electronics?

Thanks for any constructive replies.

The voltage regulator might cause radio and other interference, adds complexity, and one more
item to fail, possibly damaging the devices it was supposed to protect. There seems to be no
sufficient reason to consider this chemistry, compared to LiFe batteries, unless you are space
limited, due to higher cost and risk of over-voltage.

Is battery space insufficient on your glider?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 1:02:00 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
AS wrote on 11/26/2020 8:59 AM:
On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 11:19:57 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I have used such a battery since July. Works just fine for me in my ASG 32 Mi with lots of electronic stuff.

/Robert

So there is already some operational experience with this type of batteries, which is good to hear. The warnings about the initially high voltage of 16+V is well taken. I checked the spec's of the stuff I have on and behind my panel and most of it is limited to only 15V.
That would lead me to more follow-up questions for the experts:
- what would happen if this battery was charged with only 15V?
- if the above is not advisable, would the use of an electronic voltage regulator like this one be an option?
https://vetco.net/products/dc-dc-adj...kaAnEdEALw_wcB
- I am not familiar with this type of electronics but reading the specifications of it, I see a 'Ripple Frequency' of 150kHz on the output. Could that mess up the electronics?

Thanks for any constructive replies.
The voltage regulator might cause radio and other interference, adds complexity, and one more
item to fail, possibly damaging the devices it was supposed to protect. There seems to be no
sufficient reason to consider this chemistry, compared to LiFe batteries, unless you are space
limited, due to higher cost and risk of over-voltage.

Is battery space insufficient on your glider?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Good points, Eric.
I currently have room for and use two 12V LiFe batteries (K2) but I get low voltage warnings on my SN10b fairly early into the flight when keying the radio, a KTR72N. The batteries are only two seasons old. I may have some other, more power hungry equipment, like a Volkslogger functioning only as the GPS source, which may have a higher draw.
My goal is to get rid of the Volkslogger but in parallel, I was thinking about upgrading the batteries. However, that seems to be not as easy as cleaning up my panel.

Uli
'AS'

If you charge it to 15V only you will have a total capacity low enough that it will not worth the money.
You can linearly low the output voltage with 3A/6A diode as it says on Peter millenaar page. There will be power dissipating on he diodes of course, but it's negligible. I do not recommend buck converters because if you don't study the switching frecuency the noise on the radio can be high.

My friend had the same low voltage issue on his lx 9070 and drove him to change the battery type.
If you treat them well you have a battery for 8 seasons.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
Good points, Eric.
I currently have room for and use two 12V LiFe batteries (K2) but I get low voltage warnings on my SN10b fairly early into the flight when keying the radio, a KTR72N. The batteries are only two seasons old. I may have some other, more power hungry equipment, like a Volkslogger functioning only as the GPS source, which may have a higher draw.
My goal is to get rid of the Volkslogger but in parallel, I was thinking about upgrading the batteries. However, that seems to be not as easy as cleaning up my panel.

Uli
'AS'

On 11/26/2020 4:55 PM, AS wrote:

Good points, Eric.
I currently have room for and use two 12V LiFe batteries (K2) but I get low voltage warnings on my SN10b fairly early into the flight when keying the radio, a KTR72N. The batteries are only two seasons old. I may have some other, more power hungry equipment, like a Volkslogger functioning only as the GPS source, which may have a higher draw.
My goal is to get rid of the Volkslogger but in parallel, I was thinking about upgrading the batteries. However, that seems to be not as easy as cleaning up my panel.

Uli
'AS'


Uli, the SN10b should not complain until the voltage is below 12V. The
LiFePO4 batteries should hold well above that for a long time, if fully
charged to start with (check your charger?). I don't know what else is
in your panel, but with only vario, volkslogger, radio, flarm and SN10
it seems rather unlikely that the pair of K2s are already mostly
discharged "early into the flight". If the low voltage is only while
transmitting, check whether there is too much resistance between the
battery and where theSN10b (reporting the low voltage) and the radio
supply lines diverge. Too much resistance due to thin wires, bad fuse
contact, bad switch, etc. For a test (on the ground) you can run an
extra wire from the battery directly to the radio and see if that
changes the behavior. Remember that electricity flows in closed loops,
i.e., the problem may be in the negative (ground) side of the wiring.

For comparison, I use one 12AH LFP battery, running vario, computer,
flarm and radio, and it would easily last for 2 or even 3 long flights
on one charge. Note: I do not have a transponder, those are relatively
power hungry.