Minimum Experience and VLJ's (was Eclipse 500)

Several posters have stated that the owner/operator of the new VLJ's
will not have the "necessary" skills to fly in the current environment.
Several numbers have been thrown out, but no one has said what the
minimum annual flight hours are to be accepted as proficient by the
detractors.

How much does one have to fly annually/monthly to be considered safe and
competent to fly a VLJ in the flight levels?

I don't know about VLJ (actually nobody has ever gotten insured in one!) but
for turbines like MU-2, CJ-2 they want to see ATP, 2500TT, 1000 multi and
100 make and model minimium. This is from my experience trying to insure a
MU-2. It is possible to get coverage with less but there will only be a
couple of companies quoting and it will be expensive with a lot of
restrictions. These restrictions can be very expensive to comply with. It
is very ezpensive to fly off 100 or more hours with a pro-pilot babysitting
you. If you just go flying then it will cost at least $50,000 to get the
100hrs and if you try to actually go places you will be paying for hotels,
meals, non flying time ect. I think that this will be one of the biggest
limitation to the VLJ market. Ask yourself: "How many people do I
personally know that have ALL of the following

1) $1.5M (todays dollars) to spend on an airplane and intend to do it.
2) One year flying with a real pro-pilot. Keep in mind that the pro pilot
is taking up useful load, you aren't going to Aspen with the family and
skis.
3) One week per year to dedicate to recurrent training costing $10,000/yr
if you fly there in your VLJ
4) At least one week per year spent taking the airplane to service centers,
flying the airline back and then going to retrieve the airplane.
5) Insurance for the typical owner/operator will probably be $20-30,000.

When you start thinking about all these costs and issues, the market
suddenly isn't so big. Most people who have $1.5MM to spend on an airplane
and are willing to put up with the other costs and hassles probably already
have a jet. The cost of the actual airplane is only the first hurdle.

Mike
MU-2

"john smith" wrote in message
...
Several posters have stated that the owner/operator of the new VLJ's will
not have the "necessary" skills to fly in the current environment.
Several numbers have been thrown out, but no one has said what the minimum
annual flight hours are to be accepted as proficient by the detractors.

How much does one have to fly annually/monthly to be considered safe and
competent to fly a VLJ in the flight levels?

Mike Rapoport wrote:

When you start thinking about all these costs and issues, the market
suddenly isn't so big. Most people who have $1.5MM to spend on an airplane
and are willing to put up with the other costs and hassles probably already
have a jet. The cost of the actual airplane is only the first hurdle.

I met someone at my home airport who will be taking delivery of an Eclipse
sometime September 2006, assuming all goes well with final certification
and production.

He currently flies a 1999 Baron and claims that it will be cheaper per hour
(maintenance and engine reserve included) to fly an Eclipse. I didn't
really get into a lengthy conversation with him to know if he thought of
all the costs you listed, however.

--
Peter


















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Mike,

You make some good points. However, I know of a couple of "deep pocket"
pilots that have their aircraft in LLC's and then simply
"self-insure". Since they have more money than experience, no
insurance company will insure them, so they take on the risk
themselves...and we are talking King Airs in this cause vs. a VLJ.

BJ

Mike Rapoport wrote:

I don't know about VLJ (actually nobody has ever gotten insured in one!) but
for turbines like MU-2, CJ-2 they want to see ATP, 2500TT, 1000 multi and
100 make and model minimium. This is from my experience trying to insure a
MU-2. It is possible to get coverage with less but there will only be a
couple of companies quoting and it will be expensive with a lot of
restrictions. These restrictions can be very expensive to comply with. It
is very ezpensive to fly off 100 or more hours with a pro-pilot babysitting
you. If you just go flying then it will cost at least $50,000 to get the
100hrs and if you try to actually go places you will be paying for hotels,
meals, non flying time ect. I think that this will be one of the biggest
limitation to the VLJ market. Ask yourself: "How many people do I
personally know that have ALL of the following

1) $1.5M (todays dollars) to spend on an airplane and intend to do it.
2) One year flying with a real pro-pilot. Keep in mind that the pro pilot
is taking up useful load, you aren't going to Aspen with the family and
skis.
3) One week per year to dedicate to recurrent training costing $10,000/yr
if you fly there in your VLJ
4) At least one week per year spent taking the airplane to service centers,
flying the airline back and then going to retrieve the airplane.
5) Insurance for the typical owner/operator will probably be $20-30,000.

When you start thinking about all these costs and issues, the market
suddenly isn't so big. Most people who have $1.5MM to spend on an airplane
and are willing to put up with the other costs and hassles probably already
have a jet. The cost of the actual airplane is only the first hurdle.

Mike
MU-2

"john smith" wrote in message
.. .


Several posters have stated that the owner/operator of the new VLJ's will
not have the "necessary" skills to fly in the current environment.
Several numbers have been thrown out, but no one has said what the minimum
annual flight hours are to be accepted as proficient by the detractors.

How much does one have to fly annually/monthly to be considered safe and
competent to fly a VLJ in the flight levels?

I could not agree with you more.

I also think the alleged market for 1,000+ Eclipse air taxis is utterly
unrealistic. I do not believe the market exists for anywhere near that many
air taxis within the range and payload capabilities of the Eclipse and given
what will be the eventual costs.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Mike Rapoport wrote:


5) Insurance for the typical owner/operator will probably be $20-30,000.

Which is cheap. I know two guys. One just sold his Citation. The
insurance bill was $95K per year. He also owns a Caravan on amphibs.
The tab for insurance on that one is $35K per year. The other guy owns
a Caravan on wheels. The tab for that insurance bill is $20K. He
skipped the hull insurance and just keeps liability for hardly anything.
Relatively speaking.

Having an airplane in a LLC (or other entity) doesn't do anything to relieve
liability if you are the pilot. They protect you if someone else crashes
the airplane.

Mike
MU-2


"B. Jensen" wrote in message
...
Mike,

You make some good points. However, I know of a couple of "deep pocket"
pilots that have their aircraft in LLC's and then simply "self-insure".
Since they have more money than experience, no insurance company will
insure them, so they take on the risk themselves...and we are talking King
Airs in this cause vs. a VLJ.
BJ

Mike Rapoport wrote:

I don't know about VLJ (actually nobody has ever gotten insured in one!)
but for turbines like MU-2, CJ-2 they want to see ATP, 2500TT, 1000 multi
and 100 make and model minimium. This is from my experience trying to
insure a MU-2. It is possible to get coverage with less but there will
only be a couple of companies quoting and it will be expensive with a lot
of restrictions. These restrictions can be very expensive to comply with.
It is very ezpensive to fly off 100 or more hours with a pro-pilot
babysitting you. If you just go flying then it will cost at least $50,000
to get the 100hrs and if you try to actually go places you will be paying
for hotels, meals, non flying time ect. I think that this will be one of
the biggest limitation to the VLJ market. Ask yourself: "How many people
do I personally know that have ALL of the following

1) $1.5M (todays dollars) to spend on an airplane and intend to do it.
2) One year flying with a real pro-pilot. Keep in mind that the pro pilot
is taking up useful load, you aren't going to Aspen with the family and
skis.
3) One week per year to dedicate to recurrent training costing $10,000/yr
if you fly there in your VLJ
4) At least one week per year spent taking the airplane to service
centers, flying the airline back and then going to retrieve the airplane.
5) Insurance for the typical owner/operator will probably be $20-30,000.

When you start thinking about all these costs and issues, the market
suddenly isn't so big. Most people who have $1.5MM to spend on an
airplane and are willing to put up with the other costs and hassles
probably already have a jet. The cost of the actual airplane is only the
first hurdle.

Mike
MU-2

"john smith" wrote in message
. ..

Several posters have stated that the owner/operator of the new VLJ's will
not have the "necessary" skills to fly in the current environment.
Several numbers have been thrown out, but no one has said what the
minimum annual flight hours are to be accepted as proficient by the
detractors.

How much does one have to fly annually/monthly to be considered safe and
competent to fly a VLJ in the flight levels?

"Newps" wrote in message
...


Mike Rapoport wrote:


5) Insurance for the typical owner/operator will probably be $20-30,000.

Which is cheap. I know two guys. One just sold his Citation. The
insurance bill was $95K per year. He also owns a Caravan on amphibs. The
tab for insurance on that one is $35K per year. The other guy owns a
Caravan on wheels. The tab for that insurance bill is $20K. He skipped
the hull insurance and just keeps liability for hardly anything.
Relatively speaking.


Sure it is relatively cheap compared to the same pilot in a more expensive
airplane. In reality the insurance may be much higher than $20-30,000 it is
going to depend on pilot qualifications. If the VLJ is 50% of the hull
value of your friends Citation than it is going to cost half as much to
insure. In any event it is going to be a lot per hour for the typical user.

Mike
MU-2

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
news:1120956204.98fefa56d19619adcc5219c8241868f4@t eranews...
I could not agree with you more.

I also think the alleged market for 1,000+ Eclipse air taxis is utterly
unrealistic. I do not believe the market exists for anywhere near that
many air taxis within the range and payload capabilities of the Eclipse
and given what will be the eventual costs.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

I agree. The claims of orders for hundreds or thousands of Eclipses are
crazy. These proposed air taxi companies don't have any meaningful assets.
How are they going to buy a billion dollars worth of airplanes?

Mike
MU-2

Sure there are some buyers for which the VLJs are a perfect match. The
question is whether there are enough of these buyers to make the concept a
success. They need to sell thousands or tens of thousands of these
airplanes to get the cost down. I doubt that he has considered longer term
costs like the air cycle machine or windows/windshields although the VLJs,
being new, won't need these things for a long time.

Mike
MU-2


"Peter R." wrote in message
...
Mike Rapoport wrote:

When you start thinking about all these costs and issues, the market
suddenly isn't so big. Most people who have $1.5MM to spend on an
airplane
and are willing to put up with the other costs and hassles probably
already
have a jet. The cost of the actual airplane is only the first hurdle.

I met someone at my home airport who will be taking delivery of an Eclipse
sometime September 2006, assuming all goes well with final certification
and production.

He currently flies a 1999 Baron and claims that it will be cheaper per
hour
(maintenance and engine reserve included) to fly an Eclipse. I didn't
really get into a lengthy conversation with him to know if he thought of
all the costs you listed, however.

--
Peter


















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