My final posting to this group...

For over ten years the RAS has been amusing, sometimes instructive,
sometimes vexing. But until this week, it has always managed to stay
within my very fliexible bounds of propriety.

At last, though, I'm joining the majority of lurkers and will scrub the
group of authors who tell tales signifying nothing. The pathos of the
finish line safety argument has at last exceeded acceptable limits, as
pro and con quibble over a corpse.

JJ, you have a point of view that deserves a voice, but your arguments
have exceeded reason and respectability. You've based them too much on
a foundation of hasty generalization. Others, perhaps taking their cue
from you that blind commitment is as powerful a persuader as fact, are
using your ill-concieved arguments and genuine concern to advance
political agendas and launch ad hominem attacks - equally lacking in
genuine substance, I fear. And your own postion suffers - through
association as well as your lack of persuasive rigour.

I've decided to quit posting because I fear that I too may find myself
so embroiled in a meritless arguement, based solely on surmise, that I
fail to recognize when it is best to keep my mouth shut and simply bow
my head in sympathy and respect with those who have suffered loss. And
wait for a jury's opinion before I jump to judgement.

For those who think this note fails in that objective, my sincere
apologies. Take heart, though. It won't happen again.


Chris O'Callaghan

Fiveniner, Oscar Charlie
Ventus 2bx
Mid-Atlantic Soaring Association
Frederick, Maryland, USA

Sorry you are leaving and thanks for your contributions.

Andy (GY)

You know what, Chris? I think your right. I too will
post no more on ras. Both sides have beat this Finish
Gate vs. Finish Cylinder to death and nobody's going
to change their mind on anything. I for one will not
enter a contest that employs the Finish Gate, but that's
my personal decision. The Rules Committee, Ex-Com and
Directors have the facts and our opinions. I leave
this in their capable hands.

To the Brits, let me say; I apologize for using their
tragic accident to further my personal belief that
low altitude finishes are dangerous.

JJ Sinclair

At 14:36 16 August 2005, wrote:
For over ten years the RAS has been amusing, sometimes
instructive,
sometimes vexing. But until this week, it has always
managed to stay
within my very fliexible bounds of propriety.

At last, though, I'm joining the majority of lurkers
and will scrub the
group of authors who tell tales signifying nothing.
The pathos of the
finish line safety argument has at last exceeded acceptable
limits, as
pro and con quibble over a corpse.

JJ, you have a point of view that deserves a voice,
but your arguments
have exceeded reason and respectability. You've based
them too much on
a foundation of hasty generalization. Others, perhaps
taking their cue
from you that blind commitment is as powerful a persuader
as fact, are
using your ill-concieved arguments and genuine concern
to advance
political agendas and launch ad hominem attacks - equally
lacking in
genuine substance, I fear. And your own postion suffers
- through
association as well as your lack of persuasive rigour.

I've decided to quit posting because I fear that I
too may find myself
so embroiled in a meritless arguement, based solely
on surmise, that I
fail to recognize when it is best to keep my mouth
shut and simply bow
my head in sympathy and respect with those who have
suffered loss. And
wait for a jury's opinion before I jump to judgement.

For those who think this note fails in that objective,
my sincere
apologies. Take heart, though. It won't happen again.


Chris O'Callaghan

Fiveniner, Oscar Charlie
Ventus 2bx
Mid-Atlantic Soaring Association
Frederick, Maryland, USA

Hang on a minute Chris and JJ. Chris, I agree with
everything you wrote at the start of this thread up
to the point where you decide that the right thing
is to withdraw from contributing. JJ, your considered
last posting could have been you coming back in from
the cold and not your farewell.

John Galloway


At 18:54 16 August 2005, John Sinclair wrote:
You know what, Chris? I think your right. I too will
post no more on ras. Both sides have beat this Finish
Gate vs. Finish Cylinder to death and nobody's going
to change their mind on anything. I for one will not
enter a contest that employs the Finish Gate, but that's
my personal decision. The Rules Committee, Ex-Com and
Directors have the facts and our opinions. I leave
this in their capable hands.

To the Brits, let me say; I apologize for using their
tragic accident to further my personal belief that
low altitude finishes are dangerous.

JJ Sinclair

At 14:36 16 August 2005, wrote:
For over ten years the RAS has been amusing, sometimes
instructive,
sometimes vexing. But until this week, it has always
managed to stay
within my very fliexible bounds of propriety.

At last, though, I'm joining the majority of lurkers
and will scrub the
group of authors who tell tales signifying nothing.
The pathos of the
finish line safety argument has at last exceeded acceptable
limits, as
pro and con quibble over a corpse.

JJ, you have a point of view that deserves a voice,
but your arguments
have exceeded reason and respectability. You've based
them too much on
a foundation of hasty generalization. Others, perhaps
taking their cue
from you that blind commitment is as powerful a persuader
as fact, are
using your ill-concieved arguments and genuine concern
to advance
political agendas and launch ad hominem attacks - equally
lacking in
genuine substance, I fear. And your own postion suffers
- through
association as well as your lack of persuasive rigour.

I've decided to quit posting because I fear that I
too may find myself
so embroiled in a meritless arguement, based solely
on surmise, that I
fail to recognize when it is best to keep my mouth
shut and simply bow
my head in sympathy and respect with those who have
suffered loss. And
wait for a jury's opinion before I jump to judgement.

For those who think this note fails in that objective,
my sincere
apologies. Take heart, though. It won't happen again.


Chris O'Callaghan

Fiveniner, Oscar Charlie
Ventus 2bx
Mid-Atlantic Soaring Association
Frederick, Maryland, USA

At 18:54 16 August 2005, John Sinclair wrote:
You know what, Chris? I think your right. I too will
post no more on ras. Both sides have beat this Finish
Gate vs. Finish Cylinder to death and nobody's going
to change their mind on anything. I for one will not
enter a contest that employs the Finish Gate, but that's
my personal decision. The Rules Committee, Ex-Com and
Directors have the facts and our opinions. I leave
this in their capable hands.

To the Brits, let me say; I apologize for using their
tragic accident to further my personal belief that
low altitude finishes are dangerous.

JJ Sinclair



Hells, Bells and Buckets of Blood JJ !

Nil carborundum.

There has been a very large measure of the famous r.a.s.
'hysteresis' with regard to this issue - and a lot
of, occasionally poorly-considered, knee-jerked and
downright offensive, rubbish - to put it mildly !

You are, as far as most impartial people are concerned,
perfectly entitled to express any opinion, for whatever
reason - so long as this is done politely, rationally
- and without the use of foul language - or personal
insults.

By the same token - people are perfectly entitled to
put forward the opposite viewpoint - so long as it
is equally polite and rational.

This is, commonly, referred to as a frank exchange
of ideas - so invaluable to the whole, complex, business
of furthering the frontiers of culture, knowledge and
experience.

Offensive postings - for whatever reason - are never
justified and bring the whole of this movement into
disrepute, immediately lose the argument and are wholly
unacceptable.

There is the very rare correspondent who, having put
his (or, less frequently, her) foot in it, has the
dignity and good grace to appologise - but this seems
to be about as common as the proverbial hens' teeth.

Sadly - there is far too much of this sort of muckology
prevalent at club level - mostly from less-than-competent
'worthies', who seem have grossly overinflated opinions
of their own standing and abilities.
This, presumably, on the basis of the 'Empty Vessel'
principle.

By way of a very small example - public and pointed
comments about having one's hands in one's pockets
- on a bitterly cold day - go down like a Uranium balloon
- particularly when uttered by a much younger person!

Small wonder that we find it difficult to retain members
in the movement - least of all of the female persuasion.

The younger generation, some of whom are women, quite
rightly will not stand for this quasi-military, quasi-disciplinary
and totally degrading nonsense - and clear off to
take up sailing or Tiddlywinks - and the very best
of luck to them.

If you wish to express an opinion, and especially if
you hold strong views on the subject, take the urtmost
care to apply some basic brain power and good manners
to the issue - and then reapply both of these again
- and again - before you press the 'OK' button.

And if you are going to give good old A.N. Other a
comprehensive, public, roasting - do take the (considerable)
trouble to be totally correct in your criticism(s),
thoroughly intelligible, and do, please, garnish your
'best' efforts with absolutely flawless spelling and
syntax - whoever and wherever you may be !

Otherwhise you severely detract from the impact of
your statement(s) - and immediately weaken your argument
- be it on this forum, or from the back seat of a training
glider.

There you have it - I have had my rant - and knickers
to fireproof underwear !

s(a)ta13nski.

Wish you would NOT sign off. While you may have stirred up some folks
on the subject of finishes, and upset some people that are grieving,
there
is a significant element of truth to your observations.
It is notable that JJ is the guy who signs on with good advice about
maintenance
and repair whenever it is asked for.
Would not like to lose this.
JJ- Come back
UH

So, there's hope for RAS after all.

Two and a half years ago, I posted the following:

Three things you'll never see on RAS:

1. "I made a misake."
2. "I was wrong."
3. "I apologize."

Well, I was wrong, too. Today I read JJ's apology. Well done!

The heated exchanges triggered by Neil Lawson's accident, like the
angry messages over the Larry Sanderson/SSA scandal in 2003 that
sparked my original posting, above, are distressingly similar to loud,
strident arguments over politics or religion.

Discussion is good. Debate is healthy. Disagreement is normal
(especially among glider pilots). But there are rules.

1. Stick to the facts as much as possible.
2. When you assume or speculate, say so.
3. Don't distort the facts to make your point.
4. Give consideration to conflicting views.
5. Be nice.

I applaud Chris's and JJ's actions, Chris for saying what I believe a
number of us are feeling and JJ for responding. I hope we continue to
benefit from your valuable contributions in the future. There's enough
junk on RAS that we cannot afford to lose two experts who are willing
to share experiences and insight (even if don't always agree with
you...).

I've had to retract a statement or two on this forum over the years and
it's tough, regardless of whether you realize you're wrong or whether
you still believe you're right but admit you could have handled it
better.

I think it's no coincidence that discussion on these threads seems to
have died down. Most of the time, all we need is the knowledge that the
other person respects us and our views even if he doesn't share them.
That and being treated fairly.

Otherwise soaring begins to resemble, at least in tone, the world
around us where fanatics and zealots believe with absolute certainty in
their causes, twist the facts for their own purposes, and take
radical--sometimes criminal--actions to bend the world to their views.
Thank goodness soaring is just a hobby.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

At 18:54 16 August 2005, John Sinclair wrote:
You know what, Chris? I think your right. I too will
post no more on ras.

Well that'll make ras less interesting and informed
by two.

This forum by nature is prone to creating conflict
and occasionally offense and harsh reaction. For this
reason it requires a certain thickness of skin among
the participants. Nevertheless, I find it net (no pun
intended) constructive and find the dialog thought-provoking.
Fewer voices mean less knowledge. Chris, JJ and I have
gone at the finish gate/cylinder topic hammer and tong,
but share (I think) a mutual respect and friendship
as people of good will and members of a rare and special
fraternity. I even gave JJ a hug at Parowan this year
(ugh, snort).

I'd prefer to keep the group larger as opposed to smaller.
I hope you both feel compelled to post again soon.

9B