Budget Retracts - Anyone own a Sierra or Comanche 180?

I'm a PVT, IFR pilot, but fairly low time at 350 hours, mostly in
various fixed gear PA28's.

I'm interested in buying an entry level retractable. I'd like to use
it to get my commercial certificate, and maybe go on to my CFI/CFII.
But the primary mission would be to haul my wife, 1 year old son and
our two small dogs on 200-400 NM x-c's up and down the east coast to
visit family.

I've noticed that the older Comanche 180's and Beech Sierra seem to be
a good buy. There are several on TAP and ASO right now with mid time
engines, modern updated panels and GPS in the $45-$55K range. A
comparable Arrow, C172RG, 177RG or Commander 112 would be at least $65K
and up. Frankly it looks like the owners of these Comanche's &
Sierra's have much more invested in their aircraft than they are worth.

Any owners/operators care to share your experiences with these two
aircraft?
Are Beech parts really *that* much more expensive than Piper parts?
Is it a nightmare trying to maintain an older retractable? I would
hope not to have to sell either one anytime soon. So fast forward 10
years to 2016 --- what you you rather be maintaining, a 37 year old
Beech Sierra or a 57 year old Piper Comanche?

Thanks for sharing!

Rich

RH wrote:
Any owners/operators care to share your experiences with these two
aircraft?

Generally, the newer the airplane the better. Having said that, if
you really do plan on keeping it for a long time and using it to
fly the family around on trips, then either would be a wash. I happen
own a Comanche 250 and use it for longer cross country trips and very
much appreciate the speed and performance (over the Sierra or 180).

It's old but not a real complicated aircraft to work on or maintain.
The main problem is a long list of ADs. Most, if not all, of the re-curring
ones can be eliminated so I'd look for a plane that has had these ADs
permanently resolved if you can, that will save you in the long run.

Other than that they are both good solid airplanes, especially if
you are willing to do a lot of the maintenance and upkeep yourself
(get your hands dirty so to speak).

If you have any question regarding Comanches, ask it on the Comanche
Owners' Interactive in the Motor Transport section at delphiforums.com.
That and comancheflyer.com, the web site of the International Comanche
Society, are the two places where those who know Comanches hang out.

It seems that there are three classes of Comanches: basket cases, old
but OK, and cream puffs. There is not a lot in between. The cream
puffs are are generally selling for a lot below what it would take to
reproduce them.

The Comanche 180 is probably the sweetest flying of the family, but the
Comanche 250 is the quintessential version. But whatever you do, get a
prepurchase inspection by someone who knows Comanches before buying one.

Hank
Henry A. Spellman
Comanche N5903P

RH wrote:
I'm a PVT, IFR pilot, but fairly low time at 350 hours, mostly in
various fixed gear PA28's.

I'm interested in buying an entry level retractable. I'd like to use
it to get my commercial certificate, and maybe go on to my CFI/CFII.
But the primary mission would be to haul my wife, 1 year old son and
our two small dogs on 200-400 NM x-c's up and down the east coast to
visit family.

I've noticed that the older Comanche 180's and Beech Sierra seem to be
a good buy. There are several on TAP and ASO right now with mid time
engines, modern updated panels and GPS in the $45-$55K range. A
comparable Arrow, C172RG, 177RG or Commander 112 would be at least $65K
and up. Frankly it looks like the owners of these Comanche's &
Sierra's have much more invested in their aircraft than they are worth.

Any owners/operators care to share your experiences with these two
aircraft?
Are Beech parts really *that* much more expensive than Piper parts?
Is it a nightmare trying to maintain an older retractable? I would
hope not to have to sell either one anytime soon. So fast forward 10
years to 2016 --- what you you rather be maintaining, a 37 year old
Beech Sierra or a 57 year old Piper Comanche?

Thanks for sharing!

Rich

On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 22:40:26 GMT, B A R R Y wrote:

I have not found Sundowner parts to be crazy, as many wear items like
rod bushings and Lycoming engine parts are common to all brands. There
are unique parts like gear cushion donuts, but members of the Beech
Aero Club are pretty good about banding together and finding approved
aftermarket deals.

I'd buy the plane again...

I second what Barry says for the Sundowner. Trailing link gear on the
Sundowner cushions even the hardest of hard landings.

Can't answer for retracts though. I figure my insurance is low enough,
where I wouldn't want to get retracts as I am sure it would triple.

Allen

I've had a Sundowner for 5 years. There is a very good internet group,
Beech Aero Club, which is a wealth of resources, including highly skilled
and dedicated A&Ps.

I love my Sundowner. I've thought that if I ever traded her, it would be
for a Sierra. There's the extra cost of the constant speed prop, swinging
the gear and another hydraulic system, but that's the case with almost all
retracts.

I've been very lucky with parts. There were enough made that used parts are
available. New vendors are very slowly coming on line for things like the
landing gear donuts. Engines are engines.

Two annuals ago, my parts cost (exclusive of oil and filter) was about 3
dollars for a piece of tubing. I've replaced tires and tubes, plugs and
things like that.

This was my first airplane, and when I bought her, I knew almost nothing
about airplanes - I mean nothing. I looked at a couple Cherokees, and was
going to buy one until the A&P who did the pre-buy gave me a list of
discrepancies thicker than my checkbook. I found the Sundowner on the
internet, and close by. I had never seen a Sundowner before, and had hardly
heard of Beech. Beech built an excellent machine. When I take of access
panels (like the spar carrythrough), the workmanship makes me tingle.

I never thought that $10,000 annuals were possible, and I had no idea of
what a field overhaul cost, much less a reman. I have been very, very, very
lucky.



"RH" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm a PVT, IFR pilot, but fairly low time at 350 hours, mostly in
various fixed gear PA28's.

I'm interested in buying an entry level retractable. I'd like to use
it to get my commercial certificate, and maybe go on to my CFI/CFII.
But the primary mission would be to haul my wife, 1 year old son and
our two small dogs on 200-400 NM x-c's up and down the east coast to
visit family.

I've noticed that the older Comanche 180's and Beech Sierra seem to be
a good buy. There are several on TAP and ASO right now with mid time
engines, modern updated panels and GPS in the $45-$55K range. A
comparable Arrow, C172RG, 177RG or Commander 112 would be at least $65K
and up. Frankly it looks like the owners of these Comanche's &
Sierra's have much more invested in their aircraft than they are worth.

Any owners/operators care to share your experiences with these two
aircraft?
Are Beech parts really *that* much more expensive than Piper parts?
Is it a nightmare trying to maintain an older retractable? I would
hope not to have to sell either one anytime soon. So fast forward 10
years to 2016 --- what you you rather be maintaining, a 37 year old
Beech Sierra or a 57 year old Piper Comanche?

Thanks for sharing!

Rich

I'm interested in buying an entry level retractable. I'd like to use
I've noticed that the older Comanche 180's and Beech Sierra seem to be
a good buy.

Also consider the 'C' and 'E' model Mooneys. They're probably the
cheapest retractable to maintain and give good speeds with low fuel
flows. Possibly the 'best bang for the buck' available.
---
Ken Reed
N9124X

I'm admittedly biased and have not looked at prices in quite some time.
I own a 1/3 share of a '71 Arrow and can say that it's an excellent
platform I intend to use for my commercial certificate someday. I'm
working on my IFR ticket right now and have been enjoying flying the
Arrow. I'm sure that the other models you're looking into would suffice
for what you're looking for and that each has it's respective
advantages/disadvantages.

The best advice I can offer is take your time and be ready to walk away
from a deal. It took us six months to find our plane and we had the
first two deals fall through. In the end, we wound up with a nicely
equipped plane and a very smooth sales transaction.

Good luck in your search.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

Ken wrote:
Also consider the 'C' and 'E' model Mooneys.

I'm a big fan of Mooney's and their efficiency. I think I would need
the extra length of an F model, and those are out of my price range.

and thanks for the delphiforums info! I had no idea that even existed.

Rich

The Comanche 180 is probably the sweetest flying of the family, but the
Comanche 250 is the quintessential version.

That's an interesting comment. Can you elaborate on what it is you
like about the 180 over the other Comanches? Most of what I have read
so far online about the 180 says "go for the 250..." So any comments
specific to the 180 from someone who has flown one are greatly
appreciated!

Rich