HpH 304CZ as first sailplane

I'm SERIOUSLY thinking about buying a HpH 304C/CZ as my first
sailplane. Am I nuts?

I'm a 1000+ hour power pilot that's been flying off and on for almost
30 years. My last plane was a Mooney 251 in 1992. I have NO time in
single seat sailplanes because I'm trying to fast track my add on
license and have spent all my time in a 2-33 getting ready for the
check ride.

The point is I'm hooked on soaring so its not a casual decision. I
flew paragliders for over three years and love going XC...this is one
of the major reasons I want a high performance sailplane.

The reality is that the other sailplanes that meet my criteria are less
money but not THAT much less, especially if this is a plane that I will
not "outgrow" in several years (if ever). I live in Southern
California so I can fly pretty much year round. The ship seems to fit
the bill...I need something that I can store in a GOOD trailer and is
truly a one man assembly. I also need something with a reasonably
sized cockpit, I'm 6'1" and 205#.

ASSUMING that I get some dual time in a glass sailplane prior to
transitioning into the ship is this "too big of a step" for my first
sailplane? There is a 304CZ owner at the club I fly at and he SWEARS
that the 304 is not "over my head". BTW he is NOT trying to sell me
his plane. He transitioned into his 304CZ from a 1-36 and can't say
enough good things about it. I've read everything I can find on the
plane...mainly from the Wheels and Wings site as well as the Yahoo
Users Group and find only good things.

I'd appreciate the OBJECTIVE opinions of those who have "been there and
done that". I'm new to the forum and have learned alot from reading
the posts.

Thanks!

Go for it.
You should soloed after 10-12 flights.
Have the license after 25-30 flights
and be checked out in a Twin Grob after an other five flights.
At that point I had my glider waiting for me to catch up with my transition.
After that you will use your own judgement and comfort zone regarding how
fast you will advance.
Udo


"fcnorton" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm SERIOUSLY thinking about buying a HpH 304C/CZ as my first
sailplane. Am I nuts?

I'm a 1000+ hour power pilot that's been flying off and on for almost
30 years. My last plane was a Mooney 251 in 1992. I have NO time in
single seat sailplanes because I'm trying to fast track my add on
license and have spent all my time in a 2-33 getting ready for the
check ride.

The point is I'm hooked on soaring so its not a casual decision. I
flew paragliders for over three years and love going XC...this is one
of the major reasons I want a high performance sailplane.

The reality is that the other sailplanes that meet my criteria are less
money but not THAT much less, especially if this is a plane that I will
not "outgrow" in several years (if ever). I live in Southern
California so I can fly pretty much year round. The ship seems to fit
the bill...I need something that I can store in a GOOD trailer and is
truly a one man assembly. I also need something with a reasonably
sized cockpit, I'm 6'1" and 205#.

ASSUMING that I get some dual time in a glass sailplane prior to
transitioning into the ship is this "too big of a step" for my first
sailplane? There is a 304CZ owner at the club I fly at and he SWEARS
that the 304 is not "over my head". BTW he is NOT trying to sell me
his plane. He transitioned into his 304CZ from a 1-36 and can't say
enough good things about it. I've read everything I can find on the
plane...mainly from the Wheels and Wings site as well as the Yahoo
Users Group and find only good things.

I'd appreciate the OBJECTIVE opinions of those who have "been there and
done that". I'm new to the forum and have learned alot from reading
the posts.

Thanks!

I bought a 304CZ as my first sailplane, 4 months after I got my
license, flying only fleet aircraft at the commercial gliderport in
between (mostly 1-26s and 1-35s). A lot of thinking and research went
into that purchase and even though I no longer fly a 304CZ, I still
believe it was the perfect first sailplane. It assembles easily (though
mine required pin polishing first), handles wonderfully, and the
trailing-edge dive brakes made landing in tight places deceptively
easy.

I have no stake in your buying one (I upgraded to a Ventus 2C recently
after putting ~300 hours in the 304CZ) -- but it is a great glider for
the money and I highly recommend it as a first glass ship. You're not
nuts at all.

-ted/2NO

Not exactly responsive to your question, but don't go directly from the 2-33
to glass with flaps and retracts. There are a number of operations around
the country with glass two-seaters with retractable gear and spending 15-20
hours with an instructor in one of these will make the transition both
easier and safer. Dual cross-country is a marvelous learning technique. On
our coast, Caracole, Williams and others have Duo Discii, Great Western a
DG505, and Warner Springs a Stemme, no less. I think the west coast DG
dealer has a DG-1000. Estrella has Grobs and an MDM Fox.

Time spent in these aircraft with really good instructors will also give you
a better framework for choosing a glider. I loved the first single seat
glider I flew, but I wouldn't be happy with it now.

Adequate time spent with a good instructor in one of these ships will, IMHO,
make the transition both safer and more satisfying. Let the instructor
inform the decision as to when you're ready to go it alone. Also, don't
rule out a good used aircraft as your first ship. As long as you spring for
a thorough prebuy inspection by a sailplane savvy A&P, they provide a lot
for the money and tend to maintain their value. Marty Eiler at Caracole
does prebuy inspections using a multipage checklist that's worth every
penny. Robert Mudd in Moriarity, NM provides a similar service. I'm sure
there are others. A good reason for having the prebuy done by an A&P is
that he/she can provide an estimate of the cost of needed (or just wanted)
repairs as part of the process.

Ray Warshaw
1LK

Ray,
the man is a Money driver I would say that ship has a complexity factor
much higher then a 304.
Beside not every one needs that level of training.
Now I do recommend dual cross country exposure before one starts racing as
this cuts the learning curve dramatically.
Contact Karl Striedieck and make an appointment now here you can learn
something real quick.
Udo

Not exactly responsive to your question, but don't go directly from the
2-33 to glass with flaps and retracts. There are a number of operations
around the country with glass two-seaters with retractable gear and
spending 15-20 hours with an instructor in one of these will make the
transition both easier and safer. Dual cross-country is a marvelous
learning technique. On our coast, Caracole, Williams and others have Duo
Discii, Great Western a DG505, and Warner Springs a Stemme, no less. I
think the west coast DG dealer has a DG-1000. Estrella has Grobs and an
MDM Fox.

Time spent in these aircraft with really good instructors will also give
you a better framework for choosing a glider. I loved the first single
seat glider I flew, but I wouldn't be happy with it now.

Adequate time spent with a good instructor in one of these ships will,
IMHO, make the transition both safer and more satisfying. Let the
instructor inform the decision as to when you're ready to go it alone.
Also, don't rule out a good used aircraft as your first ship. As long as
you spring for a thorough prebuy inspection by a sailplane savvy A&P, they
provide a lot for the money and tend to maintain their value. Marty Eiler
at Caracole does prebuy inspections using a multipage checklist that's
worth every penny. Robert Mudd in Moriarity, NM provides a similar
service. I'm sure there are others. A good reason for having the prebuy
done by an A&P is that he/she can provide an estimate of the cost of
needed (or just wanted) repairs as part of the process.

Ray Warshaw
1LK

Udo,

Not sure who you're referring to or just what a "Money driver" is.

I came up with the 15 hours WAG because it would allow enough time in our
conditions for two or three cross-countries and some pattern work. Compared
to the cost of ownership, particularly of a new sailplane, the cost of
flying dual with an instructor would not be all that much greater.

In the area that our questioner plans to fly, strong conditions and limited
landout choices suggest the utility of the dual approach. I've flown with
Karl (in a Blanik) and agree that it's a spectacular learning experience,
but, IMHO more useful with some cross-country experience already in hand. I
suspect that KS would agree. Flying in the Seniors with KS, Tom Knauff or
DJ would accomplish much the same.

Ray Warshaw
1LK

"Udo Rumpf" wrote in message
.. .
Ray,
the man is a Money driver I would say that ship has a complexity factor
much higher then a 304.
Beside not every one needs that level of training.
Now I do recommend dual cross country exposure before one starts racing as
this cuts the learning curve dramatically.
Contact Karl Striedieck and make an appointment now here you can learn
something real quick.
Udo

Not exactly responsive to your question, but don't go directly from the
2-33 to glass with flaps and retracts. There are a number of operations
around the country with glass two-seaters with retractable gear and
spending 15-20 hours with an instructor in one of these will make the
transition both easier and safer. Dual cross-country is a marvelous
learning technique. On our coast, Caracole, Williams and others have Duo
Discii, Great Western a DG505, and Warner Springs a Stemme, no less. I
think the west coast DG dealer has a DG-1000. Estrella has Grobs and an
MDM Fox.

Time spent in these aircraft with really good instructors will also give
you a better framework for choosing a glider. I loved the first single
seat glider I flew, but I wouldn't be happy with it now.

Adequate time spent with a good instructor in one of these ships will,
IMHO, make the transition both safer and more satisfying. Let the
instructor inform the decision as to when you're ready to go it alone.
Also, don't rule out a good used aircraft as your first ship. As long
as you spring for a thorough prebuy inspection by a sailplane savvy A&P,
they provide a lot for the money and tend to maintain their value. Marty
Eiler at Caracole does prebuy inspections using a multipage checklist
that's worth every penny. Robert Mudd in Moriarity, NM provides a
similar service. I'm sure there are others. A good reason for having
the prebuy done by an A&P is that he/she can provide an estimate of the
cost of needed (or just wanted) repairs as part of the process.

Ray Warshaw
1LK

fcnorton wrote:
I'm SERIOUSLY thinking about buying a HpH 304C/CZ as my first
sailplane. Am I nuts?

No... It's a reasonable choice.

I'm a 1000+ hour power pilot that's been flying off and on for almost
30 years. My last plane was a Mooney 251 in 1992. I have NO time in
single seat sailplanes because I'm trying to fast track my add on
license and have spent all my time in a 2-33 getting ready for the
check ride.

Sounds good.

The reality is that the other sailplanes that meet my criteria are less
money but not THAT much less, especially if this is a plane that I will
not "outgrow" in several years (if ever). I live in Southern
California so I can fly pretty much year round. The ship seems to fit
the bill...I need something that I can store in a GOOD trailer and is
truly a one man assembly. I also need something with a reasonably
sized cockpit, I'm 6'1" and 205#.

ASSUMING that I get some dual time in a glass sailplane prior to
transitioning into the ship is this "too big of a step" for my first
sailplane? There is a 304CZ owner at the club I fly at and he SWEARS

2-33 training is plain and simple inadequate preparation for any
Glasflugel or most glass ships. That said, if you get some additional
dual training in an apropriate aircraft, I think a 304 is a very
reasonable first ship. As a 301 pilot, I can tell you Glasflugel
really was ahead of its time, the 304 is a slick ship. Bear in mind I
said an "appropriate aircraft" however, and I don't think a Grob
qualifies. The Grob is lumbering, and heavy on the controls
comparatively. It basically flies like a 2-33 but with higher
performance and less slop in the controls (I'm sure that statement will
get this thread really moving along nicely). If you can go with a Janus,
Duo Discus, ASK-21, ASK-7, or ASK-13, my guess is they are all better
than a Grob.

good luck!

Raphael Warshaw wrote:
Udo,

Not sure who you're referring to or just what a "Money driver" is.

I came up with the 15 hours WAG because it would allow enough time in our
conditions for two or three cross-countries and some pattern work. Compared
to the cost of ownership, particularly of a new sailplane, the cost of
flying dual with an instructor would not be all that much greater.

In the area that our questioner plans to fly, strong conditions and limited
landout choices suggest the utility of the dual approach. I've flown with
Karl (in a Blanik) and agree that it's a spectacular learning experience,
but, IMHO more useful with some cross-country experience already in hand. I
suspect that KS would agree. Flying in the Seniors with KS, Tom Knauff or
DJ would accomplish much the same.

Ray Warshaw
1LK


I flew 2 flights with KS at the Parowan Nationals last summer. Maybe it
was just me, but watching him was not a good learning experience. It is
like watching the cam over the driver's shoulder at the Indianapolis 500
-- that won't help you at all if you try to drive one of those cars.
For me, at least, I would need to be the one flying, with someone in the
back seat telling me what I was doing wrong. Not to say that it wasn't
a great experience -- it was, but just not one that would help me with
my flying.

I transitioned to an LS-3 after 30 Blanik hours (no other flying
experience), and in preparation took some dual time in the only "high
performance" glider that was available (a 2-place Lark). It retrospect,
it would have been good to have some time in a glider like a Duo Discus.
So I think Ray is on the right track here.

I agree that the Grob is the least "304-like" of the aircraft I
mentioned, but it will accelerate quickly enough to make the important
points about spiral dives, redlline speed and recovery, even with the
spoilers out, and will float well enough to emphasize the issues of
speed control on landing. I agree that a Duo, K-21 or DG-1000 would be
better for the purpose, but these are less available in the local
rental/instructional fleets.

Ray Warshaw

I flew 2 flights with KS at the Parowan Nationals last summer. Maybe it
was just me, but watching him was not a good learning experience. It is
like watching the cam over the driver's shoulder at the Indianapolis 500
-- that won't help you at all if you try to drive one of those cars.
For me, at least, I would need to be the one flying, with someone in the
back seat telling me what I was doing wrong. Not to say that it wasn't
a great experience -- it was, but just not one that would help me with
my flying.