What is Purpose of Sports Class Nationals?

According to the 2006 Sports Class Nationals Rules:


'The purpose of the Sports Class Nationals is to determine
the 2006 Sports Class Champion, and to select team
members for international Club Class competitions'

With most of the gliders at the latest 2006 Nats in
the ASW27/28 & LS-8 range, does it make sense to call
the winner a Sports Class Champion? Does it make sense
to select pilots for international Club Class competitions
from this group?

Inquiring minds and all that .... ;-).

Frank (X3)

Hooboy this inquiring mind can't wait to see all that comes outta this
one!

Frank,

Here is the FAI purpose:
"7.7.6 Club Class
The purpose of the Club Class is to preserve the value of older high
performance gliders, to provide inexpensive but high quality international
championships, and to enable pilots who do not have access to gliders of the
highest standard of performance to take part in contests at the highest
levels."

The problem arises with the "Entry" definition.
"The only limitation on entry of a glider into a Club Class competition is
that it is within the range of handicap factors agreed for the competition.
(AL7)"

The U.S. has opened this range to include all sailplanes. This tends to
cause contest organizers to declare tasks which are beyond the capabilities
of older gliders. This situation nullifies the "older high performance
gliders"/"inexpensive" phrase in the FAI purpose statement.

What is the common international handicap range of Club Class sailplanes?

Would limiting entries to older sailplanes increase, or decrease,
participation? What does the term "older" mean?

(Personally, I hesitate to enter contests flying mid 1960's technology.)

Wayne
HP-14 N990 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder




"Frank Paynter" wrote in message
...
According to the 2006 Sports Class Nationals Rules:


'The purpose of the Sports Class Nationals is to determine
the 2006 Sports Class Champion, and to select team
members for international Club Class competitions'

With most of the gliders at the latest 2006 Nats in
the ASW27/28 & LS-8 range, does it make sense to call
the winner a Sports Class Champion? Does it make sense
to select pilots for international Club Class competitions
from this group?

Inquiring minds and all that .... ;-).

Frank (X3)

Since I flew in the highest handicapped glider in Mifflin this year, I
am not one to comment. However if you attended the SRA meeting, you
would have a good understanding of the answer.

Where do we decide the handicap range for the Sports Class Nationals?
Because the Club Class Worlds are allowed to change, they allowed the
ASW24, and it had not been allowed before.

How many pilots flying the Sports Class Nationals have the intent of
making the US Team to fly in the Club Class? Not many, same in the
other classes.

The issue of tasking came up after Parowan last year and was discussed.
The outcome is discussed in the minutes (which nobody reads)
http://www.sailplane-racing.org/Rule...es%20Final.pdf
The tasks should be designed for the mid range gliders. At Mifflin I
thought they were, but I was not flying the Cirrus, I was flying the
80ft+ monster with the Iron thermal in the back. We did have a few days
where we were running out of room, and a Cirrus was much better suited.

The handicaps do a pretty good job of making gliders equal, however
there are times where you cannot beat performance. If we made a Club
Class Nationals to select the Club class team? How many gliders would
show up? There were 3 that showed up (Tim Welles won the Pinto trophy),
and I believe you need 8 for a Nationals. Maybe select the Club Class
Team from pilots flying Club class gliders.

Maybe there could be an incentive for a club class ship to show up? But
what about the glider that is right on the edge of the handicap, we
don't know 2 years before the Worlds what that handicap is going to be.
What if there is a change, and that pilot's glider is now out after
they have been selected for the pre-worlds.

What about keeping the Sports class just that....sport, but no
selection (would that keep poeple from comming?).

Having a Club Class Nationals....who will host it? it is already hard
to get organizations to host the ones we have now.

I am not being negative for the club class, I am actually for it, I
sold the D2ax with the intent of buying a Libelle. Mike and I almost
flew two Cirrus', but the Rotax crew is hard to beat. I am mearly
pointing out some problems that we have run into.

The primary problem of running a true sports class contest in the USA where
all the gliders comply with the international sports class rules, is people
won't show up. The USA method of "bring anything" is very well attended and
popular.

That said, there should be an extra effort made to recognize those who fly
true sports class gliders, and in my opinion, only those pilots should be
eligible for the international team.

Having said that, the international sports class is not what it seems. If
you want to be competitive, you must fly a highly prepared (modified)
glider. A competitive sports class glider is not your "standard" Cirrus.

The FAI has adopted the new 20 meter two place gliders as a new racing
class. An attempt at a USA 20 meter 2 place contest fell flat with too
little interest. Internationally, the class is a big success.

Tom Knauff
www.eglider.org


"Frank Paynter" wrote in message
...
According to the 2006 Sports Class Nationals Rules:


'The purpose of the Sports Class Nationals is to determine
the 2006 Sports Class Champion, and to select team
members for international Club Class competitions'

With most of the gliders at the latest 2006 Nats in
the ASW27/28 & LS-8 range, does it make sense to call
the winner a Sports Class Champion? Does it make sense
to select pilots for international Club Class competitions
from this group?

Inquiring minds and all that .... ;-).

Frank (X3)

Have a look at the US Team Committee web page for a proposal now under
discussion to limit team selection to pilots flying club class gliders
with performance more closely aligned with the European definition of
the class. All gliders could fly the class with a handicap as is done
now but team members would only be selected from those pilots flying a
true Club Class glider. See the US Team Committee
http://www.ssa.org/UsTeam/ust_committee.htm here and look under Special
Reporting for Part 1 & 2 Club Class Team Selection - Ideas for the
Future?

John Seaborn
http://www.ssa.org/UsTeam

Frank Paynter wrote:
According to the 2006 Sports Class Nationals Rules:


'The purpose of the Sports Class Nationals is to determine
the 2006 Sports Class Champion, and to select team
members for international Club Class competitions'

With most of the gliders at the latest 2006 Nats in
the ASW27/28 & LS-8 range, does it make sense to call
the winner a Sports Class Champion? Does it make sense
to select pilots for international Club Class competitions
from this group?

Inquiring minds and all that .... ;-).

Frank (X3)

Current U.S. Sports Class rules allow everyone to "run what ya brung";
i.e., no need to buy/borrow a special glider--older or newer--that
meets the rules. Handicapping isn't perfect but, having flown Sports
Class at the regional and national level, I like the attempt to
equalize the performance of various gliders in the scoring.

My impression is that the complaints about the U.S. class definition
rules (vs. FAI Club Class) are really a proxy for complaints about the
top pilots showing up. Some critics are honest in declaring their
preference that the Sports Class be a "training" class or at least an
environment where competition is less intense. Others feel the same but
decry the more liberal U.S. equipment rules, suspecting (correctly, I
think) that fewer of the U.S. big guns would invest two weeks of time
and a lot of money flying the Sports Class nationals if they had to
beg/borrow a Standard Cirrus.

But the Sports Class Nationals appeals to me precisely because many top
U.S. pilots do take it seriously. If I invest time and money in a
contest, I don't want to be a big fish in a small pond. I want to
measure myself against the best, even though I don't usually measure
up. The quality of Sports Class Nationals competition improved when it
became the qualifier for the U.S. Club Class Team and I think that's
just great. Making it tougher for pilots of all abilities to
participate (by narrowing the rules) is a step in the wrong direction.

That doesn't mean the loss of the "training" class or a more relaxed
competitive environment. Those can be found in Sports Class at the
regional level.

The current system is working well. Sports Class Nationals have never
been more popular. If more pilots brought older equipment, it would
show better (when I flew the Nationals a few years ago, Tim McAllister
won in a 201 Libelle, the type of glider I flew in the early '70s).
And, interestingly enough, we're sending pilots to the Club Class World
Championships who aren't on the list of the usual suspects in the
Standard, 15M, and Open class U.S. teams. In the immortal words of Bert
Lance (President Carter's budget director), "if it ain't broke, don't
fix it."

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"

In article ,
"Wayne Paul" wrote:


The U.S. has opened this range to include all sailplanes. This tends to
cause contest organizers to declare tasks which are beyond the capabilities
of older gliders.

Haven't seen that problem here in the southeastern U.S. Current world
team member David Stevenson has campaigned his Ka-6 very successfully,
Obviously, he finishes most tasks in good time. Clearly, the
handicapping system has some flaws (what doesn't?) with some gliders
having relatively better handicaps, but that can change.

The winning gliders flown in the club class in Europe are often so
highly tuned or modified that they rival the cost of a much newer ship.

I relish the chance to fly with better pilots in better equipment.
Sometimes I even beat one or two of them. Limiting the U.S. Sports Class
to older ships would just diminish participation.

Oh, one other thing - Frank, tell me again what the heck winglets are
supposed to do for an LS-4 (besides look cool?)

Unfortunately, most of us that want to compete have job constraints,
etc. that prevent us from coming. I finally am close to being able to
make a contest per year. Would I go to a sports nationals... no. Too
many that are priviledged to fly a lot and practice a lot show up. I
heard one say that it's another nationals for the big guys. That's
fine, and I don't begrudge them that. I do admire the few that fly the
FAI classes and at least try to leave the crumbs for the neophytes and
wannabes. I would possibly try the nats if I won a regional. That would
blank my vacation for a year, so it's not likely. I do intend to fly
region 10 or region 9 sports next year... big dogs or not...

Jack Womack

Wallace Berry wrote:
In article ,
"Wayne Paul" wrote:


The U.S. has opened this range to include all sailplanes. This tends to
cause contest organizers to declare tasks which are beyond the capabilities
of older gliders.

Haven't seen that problem here in the southeastern U.S. Current world
team member David Stevenson has campaigned his Ka-6 very successfully,
Obviously, he finishes most tasks in good time. Clearly, the
handicapping system has some flaws (what doesn't?) with some gliders
having relatively better handicaps, but that can change.

The winning gliders flown in the club class in Europe are often so
highly tuned or modified that they rival the cost of a much newer ship.

I relish the chance to fly with better pilots in better equipment.
Sometimes I even beat one or two of them. Limiting the U.S. Sports Class
to older ships would just diminish participation.

Oh, one other thing - Frank, tell me again what the heck winglets are
supposed to do for an LS-4 (besides look cool?)

Wow - I've certainly come to the right place for informed responses to
my post! ;-). Replying to all previouis posts:

Thanks to 'gliderstud' (what a handle) and John Seaborn for the links
to ongoing discussions in this area - I read both carefully.

I'm still having problems with the stated purpose for the SC Nats vs
what is actually happening. Here in the U.S. we have a Std Nats, a 15m
Nats, an Open/18m Nats, a World Class Nats, and the SC Nats. In 2005,
the number of gliders entered we Std 23, 15m 47, 18m 22, Open 10,
World 13, SC 48. In 2006 so far, the SC Nats hosted 55 and the World
Class hosted 9. My point is, I don't believe there is any danger in
not havning enough SC pilots and gliders to show up to make a National
contest field if the high-priced glass is excluded, and the SSA has
already repeatedly demonstrated its willingness to support a National
Constest for a relatively small number of entrants. Regarding the
quality of the competition, I think it would be much more fun to have a
fighting chance to finish in the top half of the field than to be
doomed from the start to the (very) low end of the scale. It is my
personal belief that the reason pure SC pilots *do not* come to the SC
Nats is because they know they can't possibly win or even place well
(The Harris HIll SC Nats where Tim McAllister won in his Libelle was a
freak event - I was there and the weather was terrible - we set
records for the number of landouts. If the weather had been at all
reasonable, Tim would probably not have done as well).

In all these contests except the SC Nats, all the gliders have
essentially the same performance, so it is (in theory) the best pilot
that wins. In the SC Nats it is essentially impossible to tell whether
the best pilot or the most expensive glass is most significant, because
the range of gliders is so broad. In 2005 and 2006, the best a pure SC
pilot and plane did was 6th overall (Manfred Franke in 2005 with an
LS-3), and in 2006 about 27th overall (Tim Wells in a Std Cirrus). In
both years, the SC National Champion was won by a pilot or pilots in a
Duo Discus, with other high-priced glass close behind.

Why don't we try eliminating the Duo's and the ASW27s and the ASG-29's
from the equation at the SC Nats, or at least adjust the handicaps so
their pilots have to fly a lot harder than they do now to win. Let's
try the experiment. How do we know how many pure SC pilots & gliders
will show up if we don't try? If it doesn't work, we can change it
back.

Frank(X3)