cloud flying regulations

There has been a few articles in SOARING on this lately, and perhaps a
thread or two. Some have quoted the USA FAR's about flying gliders in
clouds, or to be exact: in conditions less than VMC, but I haven't been
able to locate the actual regs. Do any of you have the specific reg
numbers for the following quotes from Tom Reesor's letter in the August
SOARING magazine?

1. Current FARs require the pilot to be instrument rated in
single-engine airplanes and also have a glider rating ... to fly a
glider in clouds.

2. Gliders flying on instruments are required to have a full gyro
panel.

Thanks in advance, and safe soaring!
Chris Fleming, F2
El Paso, Texas

Chris Fleming, F2
El Paso, Texas
================================================== =======

Visual Flight Rule (VFR) weather minimums are described in 14CFR
91.155. If the weather in your location does not meet those minimums,
you must be operating under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) and comply
with all the requirements of the IFR section of part 91.

For the equipment requirements, 91.205 describes the requirements for
POWERED aircraft, which does not apply to pure gliders but will to what
we call motorgliders. In order to operate under IFR your aircraft must
be authorized by its type certificate to do so. This will be noted in
your flight manual. Without that, operations under IFR would be in
violation of 91.9(a) which requires you to fly in accordance with your
ship's manual.

The certification requirments are described in 14CFR Part 61. In order
to operated under IFR, you need an instrument rating (61.3(e)). You
would also need to meet the recency of experience requirements listed
in 61.57(c) in order to fly IFR.

Long and short, don't do it. There is way too much to hang you with if
you do it. Never mind the implication for us all if God forbid another
airplane operating on a clearance hits you.

Thanks for the quick reply, Terry. As an ATP and instrument rated CFI,
I'm intimately familiar with the applicable IFR regs as they apply to
airplanes. Mr. Reesor specifically mentioned "glider" (not
motorglider) when he discussed both pilot and aircraft requirements to
fly in conditions less than VMC, and it is those regs that I'm looking
for.

However, while not quoting the regs, you may have partially addressed
the equipment requirements of the glider. My glider's operating manual
approves "cloud flying" if it is legal to do so in the country the
glider is being operated. But my glider's experimental airworthiness
certificate (limitations) prohibits any operation other than day, VFR.
So, perhaps the equipment requirements would be specified by the FAA
when they issue an airworthiness certificate for a glider that is
approved for IFR flight. I don't know.

In any case, I'm still interested in any regs that require gyros for
gliders operating under IFR, and I have yet to find anywhere where it
mentions that a glider pilot is required to have an instrument rating
in a single-engine airplane to fly a glider under IFR. The original
two questions remain: Which regs require

1. a pilot to be instrument rated in single-engine airplanes and also
have a glider rating ... to fly a glider in clouds, and

2. gliders flying on instruments are required to have a full gyro
panel.

Judgment issues aside, Mr. Reesor appears to be quoting regs. As far
as this thread is concerned, I would like to know what is legal; not
necessarily safe, or smart!

Chris Fleming, F2
El Paso, Texas



Terry wrote:

Visual Flight Rule (VFR) weather minimums are described in 14CFR
91.155. If the weather in your location does not meet those minimums,
you must be operating under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) and comply
with all the requirements of the IFR section of part 91.

For the equipment requirements, 91.205 describes the requirements for
POWERED aircraft, which does not apply to pure gliders but will to what
we call motorgliders. In order to operate under IFR your aircraft must
be authorized by its type certificate to do so. This will be noted in
your flight manual. Without that, operations under IFR would be in
violation of 91.9(a) which requires you to fly in accordance with your
ship's manual.

The certification requirments are described in 14CFR Part 61. In order
to operated under IFR, you need an instrument rating (61.3(e)). You
would also need to meet the recency of experience requirements listed
in 61.57(c) in order to fly IFR.

Long and short, don't do it. There is way too much to hang you with if
you do it. Never mind the implication for us all if God forbid another
airplane operating on a clearance hits you.

Fox Two wrote:
Thanks for the quick reply, Terry. As an ATP and instrument rated CFI,
I'm intimately familiar with the applicable IFR regs as they apply to
airplanes. Mr. Reesor specifically mentioned "glider" (not
motorglider) when he discussed both pilot and aircraft requirements to
fly in conditions less than VMC, and it is those regs that I'm looking
for.
[edit]
The original
two questions remain: Which regs require

1. a pilot to be instrument rated in single-engine airplanes and also
have a glider rating ... to fly a glider in clouds, and

2. gliders flying on instruments are required to have a full gyro
panel.

Judgment issues aside, Mr. Reesor appears to be quoting regs. As far
as this thread is concerned, I would like to know what is legal; not
necessarily safe, or smart!

Chris Fleming, F2
El Paso, Texas

================================================== ==============
If only it were simple, Chris. It is a bunch of regulations together to
answer your two questions. So I will try to list them in the order that
they appear in the regulation, and I am ready for any arrows to come my
way. I am an examiner and, like you, an ATP with CFI-IA-ASE-G.

First, the certification requirements, as I stated befo
The certification requirments are described in 14CFR Part 61. In order
to operated under IFR, you need an instrument rating (61.3(e)).

According to 61.5(b)(6), instrument ratings are only available to
holders of private and commercial pilots with one of these categories:
(i) airplane; (ii) helicopter, or (iii) powered lift. Since there is no
glider in the list, you must also hold at least one of these categories
in order to comply with 61.3(e). Airplane Single Engine Land with an
Instrument Airplane rating would work. You as an ATP already know that
certificate replaces your instrument rating.

You would also need to meet the recency of experience requirements listed
in 61.57(c) in order to fly IFR.

Note that this regulation does add special rules for glider pilots in
61.57(c)(2) which specifies that airplane instrument experience is OK
for some of the requirements only if not carrying passengers, otherwise
the time must be in a glider.

For the equipment requirements, 91.205 describes the requirements for
POWERED aircraft, which does not apply to pure gliders but will to what
we call motorgliders. In order to operate under IFR your aircraft must
be authorized by its type certificate to do so. This will be noted in
your flight manual. Without that, operations under IFR would be in
violation of 91.9(a) which requires you to fly in accordance with your
ship's manual.

Full gyro panel? Well it again depends. The list in 91.205(d) applies
to a Ximango or other airplane-like gliders if the type certificate
allows instrument flight. Otherwise, it is whatever the manufacturer
states. For instance, the SGS 2-33 that is so often derided here,
allows flight with just an airspeed indicator according to the
"Flight-Erection-Maintenance Manual," but specifically prohibits
instrument flight regardless of instrumentation. The Grob G103 states
that VFR Day is approved, but then lists minimum equipment for both
cockpit seats of airspeed and altimeter.

So the answer to your second question is either 91.203 AND the
AFM----OR---just the AFM.

I hope that is clearer and with better grammar than the last one.

Terry Claussen
Estrella

Terry wrote:

Visual Flight Rule (VFR) weather minimums are described in 14CFR
91.155. If the weather in your location does not meet those minimums,
you must be operating under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) and comply
with all the requirements of the IFR section of part 91.

For the equipment requirements, 91.205 describes the requirements for
POWERED aircraft, which does not apply to pure gliders but will to what
we call motorgliders. In order to operate under IFR your aircraft must
be authorized by its type certificate to do so. This will be noted in
your flight manual. Without that, operations under IFR would be in
violation of 91.9(a) which requires you to fly in accordance with your
ship's manual.

The certification requirments are described in 14CFR Part 61. In order
to operated under IFR, you need an instrument rating (61.3(e)). You
would also need to meet the recency of experience requirements listed
in 61.57(c) in order to fly IFR.

Long and short, don't do it. There is way too much to hang you with if
you do it.

Are you using IFR to mean IMC? I know at least one glider pilot that
flies IFR in his glider - Carl Herold. I don't think he flies it in IMC,
but I don't know for sure.

Never mind the implication for us all if God forbid another
airplane operating on a clearance hits you.

Can't that happen in broad daylight to a VFR glider? At least the IFR
glider would have a transponder and be in contact with ATC.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

Terry,

Yeah, learning how to correlate multiple regulations together is an art
form, isn't it?! I've followed your bread crumbs, and this is what
I've found:

CFAR § 61.3(e)(3) states that a glider pilot must have an airplane
instrument rating to fly a glider IFR:

§ 61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.
(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil
aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums
prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and
an airplane instrument rating.

But it doesn't say that (s)he needs to hold a single-engine class
rating as Mr. Reesor states. However, CFAR § 61.57(d)(1)(iii) states
that if a glider pilot chooses to complete an instrument proficiency
check in an airplane, it must be a single-engine airplane:

§ 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.
(d) Instrument proficiency check. Except as provided in paragraph (e)
of this section, a person who does not meet the instrument experience
requirements of paragraph (c) of this section within the prescribed
time, or within 6 calendar months after the prescribed time, may not
serve as pilot in command under IFR or in weather conditions less than
the minimums prescribed for VFR until that person passes an instrument
proficiency check consisting of a representative number of tasks
required by the instrument rating practical test.
(1) The instrument proficiency check must be-
(iii) For a glider, in a single-engine airplane or a glider.

So, we've answered the first question: Yes, glider pilots must have an
instrument rating in airplanes to fly a glider in the clouds, but it
doesn't have to be a single-engine airplane. But the second question
is still in limbo: are gliders (not motorgliders) that fly in clouds
required to have a full gyro panel? Again, I'm looking for the reg
that says so; anybody who has had just ten minutes of instrument
training knows that aircraft control is impossible without attitude
reference. You referenced CFAR § 91.9, but that reg only applies to
Airplanes and Rotorcraft, not gliders.

I will concede, again, that the operator must comply with any
limitations that the FAA issues with an airworthiness certificate that
approves a glider for IFR. I haven't ever seen one of those, though,
so I have no idea whether it would specify the required instruments.

As for the arrows you are expecting to fall from the sky -- they won't
be coming from my bow!

Chris Fleming, F2
El Paso, Texas

Fox Two schrieb:

But the second question
is still in limbo: are gliders (not motorgliders) that fly in clouds
required to have a full gyro panel?

For those gliders which are approved for cloud flying by the
manufactorer, the POH states the minimum panel required by the
manufactorer to do so. E.g. DG requires for its gliders T&B and vario,
LS requires T&B, vario, compensated compass and a speed indicator with
only one revolution. (Note: Both require a turn indicator, but none a
horizon! The reason is clear: The horizon can drift, the turn indicator
cannot. However it's debatebal whether you should enter a cloud without
a horizon in a modern slippery glider.)

Your country's regulations may ask for more. The requirements in my
country happen to be the same as those of LS. Airwothiness certificates
which include cloud flying are pretty common around here. Of course the
glider must fulfill the requirements of the manufactorer as well as the
legal ones to get one. (Usually it's written in the certificate:
Approved for cloud flying if the panel meets the requirements.)

As I understand, you didn't find an appropriate regulation for the US.
As cloud flying in gliders seems to be exotic in the USA, chances are,
there is none such regulation. Why not ask the FAA directly? It may be
difficult to find somebody who knows, but *somebody* must know it.
Alternatively, ask your glider's manufactorer. Those folks tend to be
well informed.

Stefan

Eric Greenwell wrote:

"Can't that happen in broad daylight to a VFR glider? At least the IFR
glider would have a transponder and be in contact with ATC. "

I researched this years ago and concluded that, as the holder of an
airplane instrument rating and a glider rating, I could fly a suitably
equipped glider in class G airspace, in cloud, without an instrument
flight plan, without a transponder, and without talking to ATC.

I interpreted suitably equipped as meaning the instruments required by
the type certificate for cloud flying (ASW19b std airworthiness).
Experimental certificates may include different restrictions such as
day VFR only.

The reason for much class G airspace is that there is no radar
coverage. I had identified a suitable area near Bagdad, Arizona.

No I didn't do it as I didn't want to buy a gyro and then have to
remove it for contests.

Andy

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:

That raised the question of whether you could ever get an
IFR clearance in a glider that couldn't hold altitude -
maybe a cruise clearance? The other option seemed to be a
waiver and a Letter of Agreement to get a block of airspace
similar to a wave window. I think the latter would be a
first, but given that glider cloudflying is legal in many
other countries, it might be possible to set it up.

The issuing of block altitude clearances to powered aircraft was not
unusual in my IFR experience (through 2002), often ad hoc without
prior written or other pre-planned arrangements.

Would it be so different fro a glider?


Jack

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:

FAR 91.9 applies to "civil aircraft," which includes
gliders. It's true that it references "Airplane or
Rotorcraft Flight Manual" in parts, which does not cover
gliders, but it also references "markings, and placards, or
as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of
the country of registry." I've always understood that the
latter applies to gliders.


Hi Todd,

Yes, CFAR § 91.9 (attached below) applies to all civil airdcraft,
including gliders, but any mention of a Flight Manual is specifically
limited to airplanes and rotorcraft, not gliders. And yes,
"...markings, and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the
certificating authority of the country of registry" would apply to
gliders, but only the "...or as otherwise prescribed by the
certificating authority of the country of registry." (i.e. the
limitations that the FAA issues with an airworthiness certificate)
would specify the required instruments to be IFR legal.

Again, I'm not declaring that my interpretation is final or correct!
I'm hoping that somebody out there can find a reg that says "Chris,
you're wrong!" In Tom Reesor's letter in the August SOARING magazine,
he claimed that gliders flying in clouds are required to have a "full
gyro panel." I want to find where it says that.

According to my glider's flight manual, to be approved for "cloud
flying," the only gyro I require is a "turn & bank indicator with slip
ball." That single instrument is far from the "full gyro panel" Mr.
Reesor claims (e.g. attitude indicator & directional gyro). But since
§ 91.9 doesn't limit gliders to their flight manuals, I assume the FAA
would specify those limitations when they issue a glider's
airworthiness certificate without a VFR-only restriction.

Until then, I'll maintain VFR at all times!
Chris Fleming, F2
El Paso, Texas




CFAR § 91.9 Civil aircraft flight manual, marking, and placard
requirements.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may
operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating
limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight
Manual, markings, and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the
certificating authority of the country of registry.

(b) No person may operate a U.S.-registered civil aircraft-

(1) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is required by
§21.5 of this chapter unless there is available in the aircraft a
current, approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or the manual
provided for in §121.141(b); and

(2) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is not required
by §21.5 of this chapter, unless there is available in the aircraft a
current approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual
material, markings, and placards, or any combination thereof.

(c) No person may operate a U.S.-registered civil aircraft unless that
aircraft is identified in accordance with part 45 of this chapter.

(d) Any person taking off or landing a helicopter certificated under
part 29 of this chapter at a heliport constructed over water may make
such momentary flight as is necessary for takeoff or landing through
the prohibited range of the limiting height-speed envelope established
for the helicopter if that flight through the prohibited range takes
place over water on which a safe ditching can be accomplished and if
the helicopter is amphibious or is equipped with floats or other
emergency flotation gear adequate to accomplish a safe emergency
ditching on open water.