Regs regarding "VFR flight following?" (also: "need to vent")

I had an interesting experience the other day. To some degree I was testing
the theory that a local Class-C facility would invariably vector VFR aircraft outside
the lateral boundaries of their airspace. I've seen this at a few different airports
where I transition through with flight following, but underneath (or overtop) the
vertical limits.

Basically, about 15 miles east I called up approach at 2500' westbound. I was
going to fly underneath the class-C which extends 5-miles from the airport SFC to
5000', and 10-miles out from 3400-5000'. My on-course track would put me about 6
miles from the airport. Sure enough, they issued vectors and told me to stay outside
10 miles from the airport. I replied that I would stay outside the Class-C. They
*again* issued me vectors and said to stay outside 10 miles. I reponded, "NXXXX would
like to terminate radar services." I never received the "radar service terminated,
squawk 1200," so I inquired as to whether or not they acknowledged my request to
terminate. The controller replied, "I want you to stay with ME until west of the
airport, continue on present heading." To which, I replied, "NXXXX outside the
Charlie, 2500, on-course, as I was planning."

I thought this particularly aggressive and unnecessary, so I was going to try
to find the official regs as far as flight following goes. I'm convinced that's the
reason why a lot of VFR pilots never want to talk to ATC unless absolutely necessary.
I pretty much use flight following on any cross-country when I'm not IFR, but it
aggravates me when they vector VFR traffic when outside (especially above/below) their
airspace anyway.

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote:
I had an interesting experience the other day. To some degree I was testing
the theory that a local Class-C facility would invariably vector VFR aircraft outside
the lateral boundaries of their airspace. I've seen this at a few different airports
where I transition through with flight following, but underneath (or overtop) the
vertical limits.

Basically, about 15 miles east I called up approach at 2500' westbound. I was
going to fly underneath the class-C which extends 5-miles from the airport SFC to
5000', and 10-miles out from 3400-5000'. My on-course track would put me about 6
miles from the airport. Sure enough, they issued vectors and told me to stay outside
10 miles from the airport. I replied that I would stay outside the Class-C. They
*again* issued me vectors and said to stay outside 10 miles. I reponded, "NXXXX would
like to terminate radar services." I never received the "radar service terminated,
squawk 1200," so I inquired as to whether or not they acknowledged my request to
terminate. The controller replied, "I want you to stay with ME until west of the
airport, continue on present heading." To which, I replied, "NXXXX outside the
Charlie, 2500, on-course, as I was planning."

I thought this particularly aggressive and unnecessary, so I was going to try
to find the official regs as far as flight following goes. I'm convinced that's the
reason why a lot of VFR pilots never want to talk to ATC unless absolutely necessary.
I pretty much use flight following on any cross-country when I'm not IFR, but it
aggravates me when they vector VFR traffic when outside (especially above/below) their
airspace anyway.

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

I think it is a case of your milage may vary with a given facility.

I fly through class C on flight following a lot and have never had
anything like that happen.

I do plan to usually either cross midfield (in which case I get a remain
at or above that amounts to about 1000' above pattern) or parallel to
the active offset enough to be out of the approach/departure area.

The closest to a vector I've ever got was to move a bit to the North
to avoid wake turbulance from a heavy on approach.

Now there is this one busy class D area where clueless yahoos that
don't seem to understand how much jet traffic there is get vectored
on a regular basis. But listening to the pilot/controller exchange
makes it obvious that the pilot is flying in rectal-cranial inversion
mode and the area seems to attract a lot of them so the controllers
have developed a hair trigger.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

wrote in
:

I had an interesting experience the other day. To some degree I
was testing
the theory that a local Class-C facility would invariably vector VFR
aircraft outside the lateral boundaries of their airspace. I've seen
this at a few different airports where I transition through with
flight following, but underneath (or overtop) the vertical limits.

I have never had this in Charlie airspace in my five years of flying.

I thought this particularly aggressive and unnecessary, so I was
going to try
to find the official regs as far as flight following goes. I'm
convinced that's the reason why a lot of VFR pilots never want to talk
to ATC unless absolutely necessary. I pretty much use flight
following on any cross-country when I'm not IFR, but it aggravates me
when they vector VFR traffic when outside (especially above/below)
their airspace anyway.

My question is where were you in relationship to the airport? Were you
under an approach or departure path? Where you near an initial approach
fix for IFR traffic?

Seems to me, that you may have been a traffic conflict for the approach
phase of the airport near these fixes (if you were indeed near one) that
ATC had the need to on to you / vector you around the Charlie airspace.

Naturally,, every airport is different, but my experience with Charlie
airspace has been quite different then yours.

Allen

: I have never had this in Charlie airspace in my five years of flying.

It's not at all of them, just a few here and there. They do tend to be fairly
consistent on it though.

: My question is where were you in relationship to the airport? Were you
: under an approach or departure path? Where you near an initial approach
: fix for IFR traffic?

: Seems to me, that you may have been a traffic conflict for the approach
: phase of the airport near these fixes (if you were indeed near one) that
: ATC had the need to on to you / vector you around the Charlie airspace.

As Doc Brown in "Back to the Future" said, "You're just not thinking
4th-dimensionally." Told them I would stay clear the Charlie... no need to get
vectored around it IMO.

: Naturally,, every airport is different, but my experience with Charlie
: airspace has been quite different then yours.

Maybe so, but I've flown underneath the Bravo in Chicago at least a dozen
times. Now *THEY* have something to worry about, but don't make an issue of it.
They'll even provide radar services for you VFR if you don't sound like an idiot on
the radio and can communicate quickly and suscinctly enough. The guys working a
podunk Charlie shouldn't get themselves worked up over traffic 2 miles and 1000' under
their airspace limits. (In their defense though, I know that there are a lot of
bumpkin' pilots around here that might have troubles flying within that tolerance).

My thoughts are if there is a traffic conflict, than the FAA needs to expand
the boundaries of the Charlie to cover it.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

I've had this happen over Milwaukee. Granted, it's a busy class C, but
the like to vector me 10 miles out over Lake Michigan, which I do NOT
like.

My experience has been mixed. At RDU where they work a lot of traffic
(for a Class C) I've found them to be flexible, accommodating, and
realistic. Home base is 10miles north and I'm often trying to direct-to
in or out of my base. Often as not, I'm sent directly over RDU with
departures and arrivals operating underneath. Other vectors I'm given
seem to always reflect the direction, density and altitudes of arrivals
and departures. No bull**** but I only get what I want if they can do
it and if I ask for it.

GSO where there is less traffic is a different matter. I'm almost
always sent around. Even when landing there, I've had them ignore my
radio calls until they were ready, causing more than 1 circling
maneuver to get my Class C acknowledgment. It's bull**** but that's the
way they do it. Less traffic, less experienced controllers perhaps.

If I'm flying underneath the ring, I generally squawk 1200. I know they
aren't sending traffic down there and I mainly need to watch out for
others 'below' the radar. They call me out to others so that helps too.

Interestingly, when passing GSO in 1200 mode, I've had a couple of a/c
that were clearly operating into or out of GSO come very close to me. I
can't remember that happening at RDU. Go figure.

wrote:
I had an interesting experience the other day. To some degree I was testing
the theory that a local Class-C facility would invariably vector VFR aircraft outside
the lateral boundaries of their airspace. I've seen this at a few different airports
where I transition through with flight following, but underneath (or overtop) the
vertical limits.

Basically, about 15 miles east I called up approach at 2500' westbound. I was
going to fly underneath the class-C which extends 5-miles from the airport SFC to
5000', and 10-miles out from 3400-5000'. My on-course track would put me about 6
miles from the airport. Sure enough, they issued vectors and told me to stay outside
10 miles from the airport. I replied that I would stay outside the Class-C. They
*again* issued me vectors and said to stay outside 10 miles. I reponded, "NXXXX would
like to terminate radar services." I never received the "radar service terminated,
squawk 1200," so I inquired as to whether or not they acknowledged my request to
terminate. The controller replied, "I want you to stay with ME until west of the
airport, continue on present heading." To which, I replied, "NXXXX outside the
Charlie, 2500, on-course, as I was planning."

I thought this particularly aggressive and unnecessary, so I was going to try
to find the official regs as far as flight following goes. I'm convinced that's the
reason why a lot of VFR pilots never want to talk to ATC unless absolutely necessary.
I pretty much use flight following on any cross-country when I'm not IFR, but it
aggravates me when they vector VFR traffic when outside (especially above/below) their
airspace anyway.

-Cory

wrote in message
...

I had an interesting experience the other day. To some degree I was
testing
the theory that a local Class-C facility would invariably vector VFR
aircraft outside
the lateral boundaries of their airspace. I've seen this at a few
different airports
where I transition through with flight following, but underneath (or
overtop) the
vertical limits.

Basically, about 15 miles east I called up approach at 2500' westbound. I
was
going to fly underneath the class-C which extends 5-miles from the airport
SFC to
5000', and 10-miles out from 3400-5000'. My on-course track would put me
about 6
miles from the airport. Sure enough, they issued vectors and told me to
stay outside
10 miles from the airport. I replied that I would stay outside the
Class-C. They
*again* issued me vectors and said to stay outside 10 miles. I reponded,
"NXXXX would
like to terminate radar services." I never received the "radar service
terminated,
squawk 1200," so I inquired as to whether or not they acknowledged my
request to
terminate. The controller replied, "I want you to stay with ME until west
of the
airport, continue on present heading." To which, I replied, "NXXXX
outside the
Charlie, 2500, on-course, as I was planning."

I thought this particularly aggressive and unnecessary, so I was going to
try
to find the official regs as far as flight following goes. I'm convinced
that's the
reason why a lot of VFR pilots never want to talk to ATC unless absolutely
necessary.
I pretty much use flight following on any cross-country when I'm not IFR,
but it
aggravates me when they vector VFR traffic when outside (especially
above/below) their
airspace anyway.


Class C services are provided within the Class C airspace itself and also
within the outer area associated with it. If you're not happy with the
service while in the outer area you are free to terminate them at any time
and proceed on your merry way, as long as you remain outside Class C
airspace.

Paul kgyy wrote:

: I've had this happen over Milwaukee. Granted, it's a busy class C, but
: the like to vector me 10 miles out over Lake Michigan, which I do NOT
: like.

Funny you mention MKE... that's one of the Charlies that *always* does it
to me. I generally fly into Capitol (02C) just to the northeast of Waukesha coming
from Chicago. Again, I'm generally flying 1000' under their Charlie, about 2-3
miles from the inner SFC veil. *IF* I talk to them, they try to vector me to the
west to get outside the lateral boundaries. If they tried to run me over the lake,
it would be a definite "unable."

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

: Class C services are provided within the Class C airspace itself and also
: within the outer area associated with it. If you're not happy with the
: service while in the outer area you are free to terminate them at any time
: and proceed on your merry way, as long as you remain outside Class C
: airspace.

That's the most interesting thing about my experience. I was halfway
expecting them to vector me, and if I figured it was inappropriate I was going to
terminate. He *didn't* acknowledge my request to terminate, in fact he essentially
denied my request by telling me he wanted me to stay with him. Had I changed to
1200 and ignored his radio calls, would I be violating anything? That's sorta why
I'm looking for the regs on "VFR flight following."

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote in message
...

That's the most interesting thing about my experience. I was
halfway
expecting them to vector me, and if I figured it was inappropriate I was
going to
terminate. He *didn't* acknowledge my request to terminate, in fact he
essentially
denied my request by telling me he wanted me to stay with him. Had I
changed to
1200 and ignored his radio calls, would I be violating anything? That's
sorta why
I'm looking for the regs on "VFR flight following."


No violation. Don't "request" termination, tell the controller you're
terminating services.