Panel mount IFR GPS for training ...

Last weekend I bought an IFR equiped '68 Cherokee 140 to get my
Instrument ticket in ... ( I flew it from Bedford, MA home to
Savannah, GA in one day. But, that is another story. )

The guy that I'm going to use as my CFII came out and looked the plane
over and told me that while the plane is technically IFR equiped it
still needs a few things. ( Isn't that typical??)

The plane is equiped with a KMA-24 audio panel with markers, KX-155
w/KI-209 nav/comm with glide slope, KX-125 nav/comm, and a KT-76
transponder. I also had pitot heat installed during the prepurchase
annual/inspection.

According to my instructor I can get my instrument ticket in the plane
as equiped, however in order to be a more well rounded instrument pilot
I really need to add an IFR certified GPS to my panel.

Question #1. In order to get my Instrument ticket tucked safely in my
pocket do I really need to be concerned about learning GPS approches,
etc.?

Question #2. If I do decide to add a GPS to my panel what is the
best/least expensive way to do it. GNS 155XL? KLN-94?

I don't plan on keeping this plane forever. And I don't want to invest
a ton of $$$ in it.

Any comments, suggestions, experiences would be appreciated.

"Bud_of_yours" wrote in message
ups.com...
Last weekend I bought an IFR equiped '68 Cherokee 140 to get my
Instrument ticket in ... ( I flew it from Bedford, MA home to
Savannah, GA in one day. But, that is another story. )

The guy that I'm going to use as my CFII came out and looked the plane
over and told me that while the plane is technically IFR equiped it
still needs a few things. ( Isn't that typical??)

The plane is equiped with a KMA-24 audio panel with markers, KX-155
w/KI-209 nav/comm with glide slope, KX-125 nav/comm, and a KT-76
transponder. I also had pitot heat installed during the prepurchase
annual/inspection.

According to my instructor I can get my instrument ticket in the plane
as equiped, however in order to be a more well rounded instrument pilot
I really need to add an IFR certified GPS to my panel.

Question #1. In order to get my Instrument ticket tucked safely in my
pocket do I really need to be concerned about learning GPS approches,
etc.?

Question #2. If I do decide to add a GPS to my panel what is the
best/least expensive way to do it. GNS 155XL? KLN-94?

I don't plan on keeping this plane forever. And I don't want to invest
a ton of $$$ in it.

Any comments, suggestions, experiences would be appreciated.


Do you have to have a IFR GPS, no. But as years go by GPS is obviously going
to be more and more prevalent and GPS approaches are going to open up many
more airports for IFR operations. If I were you I'd by a used 155XL and get
it installed.

Here's one just in time for christmas
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...4668019&rd=1,1

( I flew it from Bedford, MA home to Savannah, GA in one day. But,
that is another story. )


I would like to hear (read) that story.

Blue skies

John

Bud_of_yours wrote:

Question #1. In order to get my Instrument ticket tucked safely in my
pocket do I really need to be concerned about learning GPS approches,
etc.?

Yes, you do need to learn about GPS navigation and the associated
instrument approaches. But no, you do not need to have one in your
airplane to train for anf get your IFR ticket. If you don't though,
you should consider renting one that does in order to get some
instruction and practice in GPS approaches.

After you've had most of your basic IFR training you could most
likely become competent with IFR GPS with an additional 10 hours.
At $100/hr that's a good chunk toward buying one for you plane
so you might just want to consider doing it.


Question #2. If I do decide to add a GPS to my panel what is the
best/least expensive way to do it. GNS 155XL? KLN-94?

In my opinion, a GPS without WAAS capability to do the LPV and GLS
approaches isn't really any better than ground based approaches
you can do with your equipment (ILS, LOC, VOR) unless place you fly
out of (or places you go alot) only have GPS approaches. GPS does
offer good situational awareness beacuse of the map though, but you
can get that with a portable GPS... and even do practice non-
precision GPS approaches with them.

I don't plan on keeping this plane forever. And I don't want to invest
a ton of $$$ in it.

Any comments, suggestions, experiences would be appreciated.

Any $$$ invested would probably only be half recovered when you
sell the plane, but a GPS would increase tghe value of it.

"Bud_of_yours" wrote:
The plane is equiped with a KMA-24 audio panel with markers, KX-155
w/KI-209 nav/comm with glide slope, KX-125 nav/comm, and a KT-76
transponder. I also had pitot heat installed during the prepurchase
annual/inspection.

That sounds like a limited, but pretty typical GA IFR panel up until GPS
came on the scene and changed everything. More typically, you would have
had an ADF too. The next step up would have added DME.

According to my instructor I can get my instrument ticket in the plane
as equiped, however in order to be a more well rounded instrument pilot
I really need to add an IFR certified GPS to my panel.

I would agree with him for the most part, but that doesn't mean you need to
run out and buy a GPS today. IFR training is about several things:

1) Learning how to hold heading, altitude, and airspeed within carefully
controlled limits. You need to be so good at this that you can do it half
in your sleep. This has nothing to do with GPS.

2) Learning how to work in the system, i.e. interacting with ATC,
understanding clearances and procedures, knowing how to read the various
kinds of charts, maintaining situational awareness, etc. This has nothing
to do with GPS.

3) All kinds of regulatory stuff like alternates, minimums, currency
requirements, required equipment, etc. This has nothing to do with GPS.

4) Knowing how to use specific navigation technologies. This is where GPS
finally comes into the picture. With the equipment you have now, you will
get a good basic foundation in the use of VOR navigation, which is still
going to be useful to you. Certainly, you will be spending plenty of time
practicing ILS approaches, which aren't going away any time soon.

Question #1. In order to get my Instrument ticket tucked safely in my
pocket do I really need to be concerned about learning GPS approches,
etc.?

Absolutely not. Get the rating with the equipment you have now and learn
the basics. At some point in the future, you will undoubtedly want to move
up the GPS, but there's no reason you have to do it now.

Question #2. If I do decide to add a GPS to my panel what is the
best/least expensive way to do it. GNS 155XL? KLN-94?

"Best" and "least expensive" really don't belong in the same sentence :-)
A quick look at ebay shows lots of used previous-generation IFR panel-mount
GPS's going for $1-2k. Add to that installation costs and the cost of
maintaining a database subscription (another few $100/year). But, if, as
you say:

I don't plan on keeping this plane forever. And I don't want to invest
a ton of $$$ in it.

It may not be worth it. Adding something like that to the plane won't add
much, if anything, to the resale value.

At the "best" end of the spectrum, adding a high-end unit like a
GNS-430/480/530 will be more in the $10k range. But, first get the basic
rating and use it a bit. Then you'll have a better understanding of what
the issues are and what you needs are.

No, you do not need an IFR GPS to get your instrument rating.
Roy makes valid points.
I would add that you would actually be better off with GPS while you do
your training.
My reasoning is that it will teach you to think about where you are in
the 3-D world instead of showing you. You will have to think to
interpret your instruments and convert them to a point in space based
solely on how the NAV needles are moving.
Once you can do that, then add the GPS.

john smith wrote:

I would add that you would actually be better off with GPS while you do your training.


I assume John meant "without GPS". I would agree - the situational awareness the map provides is
great, but it is a bit of a crutch - figuring it out based on the separate traditional instruments is good
practice.

One other point not mentioned: If you go ahead and get the GPS now, you will be expected to be
proficient in its use on your checkride. If you wait until later, you can decide what your needs are and then
learn to use whatever you buy on your own schedule. I went this route - on my checkride I did an NDB,
ILS and VOR approach. Then added a GPS later. I've often thought it would have been a mixed blessing -
I would have had to really learn the GPS to be ready for the checkride, but OTOH flying the GPS
approaches with the map is very easy compared to an NDB approach. (and I suppose learning that NDB
technique when the ADF isn't even in my panel anymore was somewhat of a wasted effort at this point.)

Mike

A GPS will probably just complicate getting your IFR ticket. Suggest
you start without it, talk to your instructor and look at what other
pilots in your area are doing. Also, talk to your DE. Yes an IFR GPS
is a great instrument to have, but it's actually easier to learn on
traditional instruments.

Doug wrote:
A GPS will probably just complicate getting your IFR ticket. Suggest
you start without it, talk to your instructor and look at what other
pilots in your area are doing. Also, talk to your DE. Yes an IFR GPS
is a great instrument to have, but it's actually easier to learn on
traditional instruments.

I teach in G1000 aircraft as well as some pre-GPS aircraft. I disagree
with your statement. Doing a PT for an ILS with a moving map is much
easier than trying to figure entry procedures.

-Robert, CFII

(and I suppose learning that NDB
technique when the ADF isn't even in my panel anymore was somewhat of a
wasted effort at this point.)

Mike

Note a wasted effort at all, you can apply what you learned about NDB and
course corrections to all aspects of your IFR flying.

BT