high winds in Palm Spring

I'm a low timer (110 hours) scheduled to fly from Palo Alto to the
Bermuda Dunes in the Palm Springs area Thursday afternoon.
Unfortunately, I see there is Wind Advisory in effect from 11 am
Wednesday to 9 PM PDT Thursday and forecast winds of 20 to 30 mph from
the northwest. It'd be one thing if that just means strong but steady
winds blowing down the runway. But I'm concerned that it could mean
strong gusts at ground level and/or significant turbulence in the
Cajon and Banning passes that I'll be traveling through. I will
continue to monitor conditions and talk to a briefer prior to making a
go/no go decision but I was wondering if anyone here has local
knowledge about the ramifications of this forecast.

Thanks.

Blair

On 4/11/2007 3:34:24 AM, Blair wrote:

I will
continue to monitor conditions and talk to a briefer prior to making a
go/no go decision but I was wondering if anyone here has local
knowledge about the ramifications of this forecast.

If you haven't already, consider calling one of the flight schools there at
the PSP airport and ask for an instructor's opinion, too. Most there are
quite helpful.

As far as local experience, my father used to live in PSP so a few years ago
when visiting him I rented a C172 out of the Palm Springs Flight School and
had my checkout ride in some pretty stiff winds. The instructor and I flew up
to Big Bear Lake and then west towards LA, then back around through the
Banning Pass to land. I recall that it was turbulent through the pass, but
not out-of-control turbulence, so I had no trouble with it for my experience
at the time. Landing at Palm Springs airport in those winds required the same
gusty winds landing skills as other airports. I wouldn't want to fly over
those mountains in strong winds, mind you, but as they are 10 to 12 thousand
feet high it tends to not be an option for the typical light GA aircraft.

The answer to your question also depends on your passengers. If you are going
to be carrying passengers and they are inexperienced light GA passengers, it
would be wise to wait until the winds were not so strong.

--
Peter

On Apr 11, 6:51 am, "Peter R." wrote:
On 4/11/2007 3:34:24 AM, Blair wrote:

I will
continue to monitor conditions and talk to a briefer prior to making a
go/no go decision but I was wondering if anyone here has local
knowledge about the ramifications of this forecast.

If you haven't already, consider calling one of the flight schools there at
the PSP airport and ask for an instructor's opinion, too. Most there are
quite helpful.

As far as local experience, my father used to live in PSP so a few years ago
when visiting him I rented a C172 out of the Palm Springs Flight School and
had my checkout ride in some pretty stiff winds. The instructor and I flew up
to Big Bear Lake and then west towards LA, then back around through the
Banning Pass to land. I recall that it was turbulent through the pass, but
not out-of-control turbulence, so I had no trouble with it for my experience
at the time. Landing at Palm Springs airport in those winds required the same
gusty winds landing skills as other airports. I wouldn't want to fly over
those mountains in strong winds, mind you, but as they are 10 to 12 thousand
feet high it tends to not be an option for the typical light GA aircraft.

The answer to your question also depends on your passengers. If you are going
to be carrying passengers and they are inexperienced light GA passengers, it
would be wise to wait until the winds were not so strong.

--
Peter

Agree. also just have a plan B. Thermal KTRM is a little further
down the valley, might not be as bad. Also, dont use full flaps on
landing (I use 20 in a 172) so I can go around easier - esp with pax.
1/2 the gust factor - you know the drill.

Blair wrote:

I'm a low timer (110 hours) scheduled to fly from Palo Alto to the
Bermuda Dunes in the Palm Springs area Thursday afternoon..... But
I'm concerned that it could mean strong gusts at ground level
and/or significant turbulence in the Cajon and Banning passes that
I'll be traveling through.

I live in Tehachapi, work in Mojave, and fly in this area often.
Winds will be an issue from Bakersfield through the Tehachapi pass
into the Antelope Valley (to Rosamond) and then again as you get near
Big Bear. I'd recommend NOT going through the Cajon/Banning passes,
but going around Big Bear to the north and east, and then cutting
south to Palm Springs. You'll still get bumped a bit, but it'll be
less than going through the passes - especially Banning.

I'd actually be more concerned about the winds tomorrow (Thursday)
just east of the windmill farm on the Tehachapi ridge - when winds are
over 20-25 kts, you get a pretty good rotor going, and even when there
are no clouds to point it out to you, it's there. I've gotten beat up
pretty good going back and forth over that ridge. Stay at least 2000
ft. over the ridge - going east, be at 9500 ft, and west, 8500 ft.
The winds in Mojave/Edwards are supposed to be in the 40-50 kt. range
- sometimes, it's relatively smooth, with 5 kt. gusts, and sometimes
it's bumpy with 20 kt. gusts. Check the Metars before you leave to
see what's up.

All that said, the turbulence is rarely more than light to moderate -
it's bumpy, and not a lot of fun, but hardly dangerous.

Although there is one pilot at work who got flipped inverted at 800
ft. AGL on downwind at Mojave by the rotor, but that's rare :-).

--
Marc J. Zeitlin
http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright (c) 2007

Unfortunately, the Palm Springs Thursday forecast is now:

Areas of blowing sand and blowing dust...Winds northwest 25 to 35 mph
with gusts to 50 mph. Visibility one quarter mile or less at times in
the evening.

That's sounding out of my comfort level. It's looking like a Friday
morning departure.

But good advice so far. Especially about the alternate route around
Big Bear.

Marc, regarding Tehachapi pass, how does that compare to Tejon pass?
My planned route was to follow 5 to Gorman and then turn to Palmdale.

Best.

Blair

Marc J. Zeitlin wrote:

I'd recommend NOT going through the Cajon/Banning passes, but going
around Big Bear to the north and east, and then cutting south to Palm
Springs. You'll still get bumped a bit, but it'll be less than going
through the passes - especially Banning.

I'd agree with this suggestion for a smoother flight -- but be vigilant
near Adelanto for UAV activity. last year I attended a safety
seminar at the San Diego FSDO presented by an Edwards AFB test pilot
who pointed out the hazards in and around the R2508 complex. Adelanto
was mentioned for the high conentration of UAV activity with a strong
suggestion to keep your eyes outside the cockpit when you are in the
area. The footprint for their activty was significant.

Steve

Blair wrote:

weather turned to crap

Yeah, it's 55G65 here at Mojave now, and cold. Pretty miserable. 40
kts in Tehachapi with snow :-).

Marc, regarding Tehachapi pass, how does that compare to Tejon pass?
My planned route was to follow 5 to Gorman and then turn to Palmdale.

Tejon pass is lower and less windy (usually), as is western Antelope
Valley, but going over BFL/TSP/MHV/PMD rather than Gorman/PMD keeps
you closer to airports - there's nothing in the western Antelope
Valley. 8500 ft. over Tehachapi is higher than anything surrounding
you, and keeps you high enough to stay out of the worse turbulence
down lower - you're 3K ft. over the windmill ridge.

Plus, Tehachapi is prettier :-).

--
Marc J. Zeitlin

On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:55:46 -0700, Steve Schneider
wrote in :

last year I attended a safety
seminar at the San Diego FSDO presented by an Edwards AFB test pilot
who pointed out the hazards in and around the R2508 complex. Adelanto
was mentioned for the high conentration of UAV activity with a strong
suggestion to keep your eyes outside the cockpit when you are in the
area. The footprint for their activty was significant.

Did the Edwards AFB test pilot happen to mention why they don't
confine their UAV operations to their not insignificant expanse of
Restricted areas?

It's always a good idea to keep a sharp lookout for conflicting
traffic. The Air Force conducted a study that indicated that only 3
or 4 seconds out of every 20 seconds should be spent on piloting the
aircraft; the rest should be spent scanning.

Larry Dighera writes:

It's always a good idea to keep a sharp lookout for conflicting
traffic. The Air Force conducted a study that indicated that only 3
or 4 seconds out of every 20 seconds should be spent on piloting the
aircraft; the rest should be spent scanning.

That would depend on the flight conditions, would it not? I'm not sure what a
pilot over the Atlantic would be scanning for that would require 17 out of
every 20 seconds.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:55:46 -0700, Steve Schneider
wrote in :

last year I attended a safety
seminar at the San Diego FSDO presented by an Edwards AFB test pilot
who pointed out the hazards in and around the R2508 complex. Adelanto
was mentioned for the high conentration of UAV activity with a strong
suggestion to keep your eyes outside the cockpit when you are in the
area. The footprint for their activty was significant.

Did the Edwards AFB test pilot happen to mention why they don't
confine their UAV operations to their not insignificant expanse of
Restricted areas?


At the time he did not go into much detail, though I subsequently
learned that General Atomics has Predator-B/Altair R&D and production
facilities in the area. It is my understanding that much of the
UAV activity south of the R2508 complex is conducted by General
Atomics rather than by NASA or the Air Force -- though some of
the flights are likely for training NASA and AF UAV operators.

http://www.ga.com/news.php?subaction..._from=&ucat=1&
provided the following tidbit about GA's program:

... training UA crews in the unrestricted areas where
manufacturer airports typically reside. Under Altair’s
airworthiness certificate, the aircraft can continue
to be used for crew training, experimental flight testing
and marketing demonstrations at GA-ASI’s Gray Butte and
El Mirage air fields in Palmdale and Adelanto, CA.

I dug up some of the hardcopy materials I collected at the presentation
which reference http://www.edwards.af.mil/psafety as the Edwards AFB
source for current safety info and copies of the presentation materials.
Much to my suprise the link is not currenlty valid, though I did find
it cached on Google -- but none of the subsequent links off that page
seem to work. I had visited these pages after the presentation, and
there was a lot of good content. I hope they put them back online.

Steve