Super Hornets: I don't get it

"David Moss" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
writes...

You don't send strikers in on their own. That's what EW is for. Did you
know
that there is a Wild Weasel version of the Super Hornet going into
production. (The EA18G "Growler") that will replace the EA6 Prowler and
the
(now retired) EF111 Raven.

Just imagine, a EW platform with 100% in common with the rest of the
strike
package.

Electronic Warfare packs emit radio signals designed to jam or confuse
enemy radar. Notice the word "emit". Anything that emits RF can be
triangulated using very basic equipment.

That's why you separate your Weasels from your strikers.

Thats the downside of using EW: you let people know precisely where you
are. Generally people leave EW
packs

Hmmm, yeah, on-board EW kits, yes. I was talking about dedicated EW
aircraft. The ones with the really good EW voodoo.

turned off unless they have an urgent and immediate need to jam or
confuse. An incoming missile is about the only reason to turn it on.

Yeah, that's the self-defence EW kit. I'm talking about SEAD-type EW
platforms like the EA-18F Growler.

That still have to find their targets to kill them. F18F's are stealthier
than Su30's.

But not as stealthy as 40 year old F111s.

An FA18 is less observable than a barn-door RCS F111? Since when?

Or the SU24 for that matter.

I think you made a typo. Or did you actually mean the F111ski?

The Russians plan to replace their SU24s with SU34s about the same time
our F111s stop flying. They are currently in low number production.

Su24? The Cold War swing-wing ground attack aircraft? The F111ski?

The SU34, which is not currently an option for anyone but Russia, is a
true F111 replacement. It is a long range fighter bomber that allegedly
has a semi stealthy shape

Doubtful. It doesn't exhibit much of the faceting you normally see on a low
RCS airframe.

and low level terrain following capability.

You do realise that terrain following is a good ground-based radar counter
measure, but not so good against a decent look-down radar on say....
Wedgetail?


--
"Don't believe everything you think".

In article ,
writes...

You do realise that terrain following is a good ground-based radar counter
measure, but not so good against a decent look-down radar on say....
Wedgetail?

Do the Indonesians have a wedgetail?

BTW low level is more than a game of hide and seek. Once you get down
among the valleys and trees its damned difficult to hit you even if they
do detect you. They reckon there are only 3 US aircraft with much chance
of success against a really well defended target today. One of them is
the F111. We aren't getting either of the others.

DM

On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 07:11:24 GMT, "Praetorian"
wrote:

"David Moss" wrote in message
. ..
In article ,
writes...

You don't send strikers in on their own. That's what EW is for. Did you
know that there is a Wild Weasel version of the Super Hornet going into
production. (The EA18G "Growler") that will replace the EA6 Prowler and
the (now retired) EF111 Raven.

Growler, Prowler and Raven are NOT Wild Weasels. Weasels are NOT
jammers. Weasels are hunter/killers.

Just imagine, a EW platform with 100% in common with the rest of the
strike package.

Why? No real benefit. Different mission, different weapons, different
supply chain, different training, different profile, different
tactics. All you really need is airfield and tanker compatibility.

Electronic Warfare packs emit radio signals designed to jam or confuse
enemy radar. Notice the word "emit". Anything that emits RF can be
triangulated using very basic equipment.

That's why you separate your Weasels from your strikers.

That's why EW aircraft aren't Weasels.

Thats the downside of using EW: you let people know precisely where you
are. Generally people leave EW
packs

Hmmm, yeah, on-board EW kits, yes. I was talking about dedicated EW
aircraft. The ones with the really good EW voodoo.

Why do you need high-power broadband blasting when you can be stealthy
and only need to confuse the defense when it's in end-game? Big
dedicated EW blasters are SOOOO yesterday.

The SU34, which is not currently an option for anyone but Russia, is a
true F111 replacement. It is a long range fighter bomber that allegedly
has a semi stealthy shape

Doubtful. It doesn't exhibit much of the faceting you normally see on a low
RCS airframe.

Not much faceting on B-2....or F-22. Faceting was the first solution.
Compound curves were too difficult to machine consistently when the
F-117 was designed. Technology evolved.

and low level terrain following capability.

You do realise that terrain following is a good ground-based radar counter
measure, but not so good against a decent look-down radar on say....
Wedgetail?

Pulse doppler radars have provided excellent look-down/shoot down
since the late '70s. Ground clutter for an airborne platform simply
does not exist.

I learned that very impressively one day while tooling down the New
Mexico desert at 75' and 500 knots with one wing-tip nestled against
Mockingbird Ridge for vertical shielding enroute to a target. Got
nailed by a pair of F-15s that had me locked for the last fifteen
miles.

Ed Rasimus
Society of Wild Weasels #2488

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Ed,

Growler, Prowler and Raven are NOT Wild Weasels. Weasels are NOT jammers. Weasels are hunter/killers.

Small point, but IIRC the current EA-6B is HARM-equipped/capable. That would make it a "weasel," n'est-ce pas?

True that in its very early deployments (very end of the VN era) the EA-6B Prowler had no offensive capability. At that time, the "Weasel" role ("Iron Hand" to the VN era US Navy) was performed for carrier-based airwings by the SHRIKE and Standard ARM equipped A-6B.

--
Mike Kanze

"If voting could really change things, it would be illegal."

- Cynical comment posted in Revolution Books, New York City



"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message ...
On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 07:11:24 GMT, "Praetorian"
wrote:

"David Moss" wrote in message
. ..
In article ,
writes...

You don't send strikers in on their own. That's what EW is for. Did you
know that there is a Wild Weasel version of the Super Hornet going into
production. (The EA18G "Growler") that will replace the EA6 Prowler and
the (now retired) EF111 Raven.

Growler, Prowler and Raven are NOT Wild Weasels. Weasels are NOT
jammers. Weasels are hunter/killers.

[rest snipped]

Growler is supposed to be HARM equipped also
"Mike Kanze" wrote in message . ..
Ed,

Growler, Prowler and Raven are NOT Wild Weasels. Weasels are NOT jammers. Weasels are hunter/killers.

Small point, but IIRC the current EA-6B is HARM-equipped/capable. That would make it a "weasel," n'est-ce pas?

True that in its very early deployments (very end of the VN era) the EA-6B Prowler had no offensive capability. At that time, the "Weasel" role ("Iron Hand" to the VN era US Navy) was performed for carrier-based airwings by the SHRIKE and Standard ARM equipped A-6B.

--
Mike Kanze

"If voting could really change things, it would be illegal."

- Cynical comment posted in Revolution Books, New York City



"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message ...
On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 07:11:24 GMT, "Praetorian"
wrote:

"David Moss" wrote in message
. ..
In article ,
writes...

You don't send strikers in on their own. That's what EW is for. Did you
know that there is a Wild Weasel version of the Super Hornet going into
production. (The EA18G "Growler") that will replace the EA6 Prowler and
the (now retired) EF111 Raven.

Growler, Prowler and Raven are NOT Wild Weasels. Weasels are NOT
jammers. Weasels are hunter/killers.

[rest snipped]

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 07:11:24 GMT, "Praetorian"
wrote:

"David Moss" wrote in message
...
In article ,
writes...

You don't send strikers in on their own. That's what EW is for. Did you
know that there is a Wild Weasel version of the Super Hornet going into
production. (The EA18G "Growler") that will replace the EA6 Prowler and
the (now retired) EF111 Raven.

Growler, Prowler and Raven are NOT Wild Weasels. Weasels are NOT
jammers. Weasels are hunter/killers.

True enough. I'm being a bit loose with the terminologies for the benefit of
the lowest common denominators.


Just imagine, a EW platform with 100% in common with the rest of the
strike package.

Why?

Because small Air Force's can't afford multiple airframe types.

No real benefit. Different mission, different weapons, different
supply chain, different training, different profile, different
tactics. All you really need is airfield and tanker compatibility.

Electronic Warfare packs emit radio signals designed to jam or confuse
enemy radar. Notice the word "emit". Anything that emits RF can be
triangulated using very basic equipment.

That's why you separate your Weasels from your strikers.

That's why EW aircraft aren't Weasels.

Thats the downside of using EW: you let people know precisely where you
are. Generally people leave EW
packs

Hmmm, yeah, on-board EW kits, yes. I was talking about dedicated EW
aircraft. The ones with the really good EW voodoo.

Why do you need high-power broadband blasting when you can be stealthy
and only need to confuse the defense when it's in end-game? Big
dedicated EW blasters are SOOOO yesterday.

The SU34, which is not currently an option for anyone but Russia, is a
true F111 replacement. It is a long range fighter bomber that allegedly
has a semi stealthy shape

Doubtful. It doesn't exhibit much of the faceting you normally see on a
low
RCS airframe.

Not much faceting on B-2

Seen the intakes and bomb bay doors?

....or F-22.

See above.


--
"Don't believe everything you think".

"Praetorian" wrote in message
...
"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 07:11:24 GMT, "Praetorian"
wrote:

"David Moss" wrote in message
m...
In article ,
writes...

You don't send strikers in on their own. That's what EW is for. Did
you
know that there is a Wild Weasel version of the Super Hornet going
into
production. (The EA18G "Growler") that will replace the EA6 Prowler
and
the (now retired) EF111 Raven.

Growler, Prowler and Raven are NOT Wild Weasels. Weasels are NOT
jammers. Weasels are hunter/killers.

True enough. I'm being a bit loose with the terminologies for the benefit
of the lowest common denominators.


You're dumbing things down so YOU can understand them??
Nice one Brash.

--
Kwyj.

In article ,
writes...

Pulse doppler radars have provided excellent look-down/shoot down
since the late '70s. Ground clutter for an airborne platform simply
does not exist.

I learned that very impressively one day while tooling down the New
Mexico desert at 75' and 500 knots with one wing-tip nestled against
Mockingbird Ridge for vertical shielding enroute to a target. Got
nailed by a pair of F-15s that had me locked for the last fifteen
miles.

What were your Knucks doing while you were getting nailed?
I realise weasels like to hunt alone, but pigs usually like a bit of top
cover when they go sneaking around near the treetops.

DM

On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 11:18:11 GMT, David Moss
wrote:

In article ,
writes...

Pulse doppler radars have provided excellent look-down/shoot down
since the late '70s. Ground clutter for an airborne platform simply
does not exist.

I learned that very impressively one day while tooling down the New
Mexico desert at 75' and 500 knots with one wing-tip nestled against
Mockingbird Ridge for vertical shielding enroute to a target. Got
nailed by a pair of F-15s that had me locked for the last fifteen
miles.

What were your Knucks doing while you were getting nailed?
I realise weasels like to hunt alone, but pigs usually like a bit of top
cover when they go sneaking around near the treetops.

DM

I was leading a pair of AT-38s heading to a target in Red Rio range.
No weaseling go on there. We were operating in trail so that we could
maintain as close as possible to the terrain masking of the ridge.

Gotta say that if an F-15A flown by a low-time driver can pick up the
little RCS of a head-on Talon under those conditions you'd be foolish
to depend on low altitude or terrain masking to survive in the modern
environment.

Lots of development since those days.
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

On Nov 7, 7:27 pm, "Mike Kanze" wrote:
Ed,

Growler, Prowler and Raven are NOT Wild Weasels. Weasels are NOT jammers. Weasels are hunter/killers.

Small point, but IIRC the current EA-6B is HARM-equipped/capable. That would make it a "weasel," n'est-ce pas?

I think it's debatable..."Wild Weasel" to me is more about tactics
than what weapon is loaded. I can't imagine any Prowler pilot trying
to tease a SAM site into going live and hoping he can stuff a HARM
down the beam before they get a missile off. Growlers probably won't
be much more daredevilly even with the improved agility.