Rudder waggle

Since the rudder waggle signal was brought up in another thread, I
have a few thoughts and would like to get other opinions. I am a
glider and tow pilot for my club, so I have thought these through from
both ends.

To start with, if the tow plane gives you a wave off signal, THERE IS
TIME TO THINK ABOUT IT ! If there was no time (30 sec or less to
disaster) the tow pilot will just pull their release. So any signal
that you get, you have enough time to carefully think. "What is that
signal; check spoilers or wave-off ?" Take 10 seconds and THINK !

On the tow-pilot side, assume that the glider pilot will most likely
release when you give the waggle, so don't waggle unless 1) you are
going to die soon, if the glider doesn't close the spoilers, or 2) the
glider is high enough and close enough to the airport to land with
full spoilers out.

If you have a radio, you could calmly call the glider and say "hey
glider, are your spoilers open ?" Don't say the word release, because
he might release. I still wouldn't do this close to the ground.

Todd Smith
3S

Good advice all around. Radio is a good first response in any case,
unless you're in a "kiting" situation, in which case the tow pilot
must release as fast as he can. If the glider is not kiting and the
tow plane can clear obstacles at the end of the runway, please try not
to act hastily. The advice to be calm on the radio is good. If you
cannot think of the glider's call sign (happened to me once), just say
"spoilers, spoilers, spoilers". That should get the message across.
Fred

ahh.. excuse me... but I do not think the rudder waggle is the release
signal.. at least in the USA

Rudder Wag in flight means... CHECK YOUR GLIDER.. something is not right..
SPOILERS are the first thing to check.
FAA-H-8083-13, page 7-2, and other SSA references

If you waggle the rudder to get the glider to check his spoilers, and he
releases, poor training on the glider pilots side.
If you really want him off tow because of a tow plane problem. I agree, a
Wing Rock Wave Off, if I as tow have time. If I as tow do not have time, his
first clue may be a puff of smoke from my engine and the rope coming toward
him. I will not waste time for a wing rock and time for him to figure out
what I want.

I agree, calm radios first, but if the frequency is so busy that I cannot
get a word in. Rudder waggle.

BT

"toad" wrote in message
...
Since the rudder waggle signal was brought up in another thread, I
have a few thoughts and would like to get other opinions. I am a
glider and tow pilot for my club, so I have thought these through from
both ends.

To start with, if the tow plane gives you a wave off signal, THERE IS
TIME TO THINK ABOUT IT ! If there was no time (30 sec or less to
disaster) the tow pilot will just pull their release. So any signal
that you get, you have enough time to carefully think. "What is that
signal; check spoilers or wave-off ?" Take 10 seconds and THINK !

On the tow-pilot side, assume that the glider pilot will most likely
release when you give the waggle, so don't waggle unless 1) you are
going to die soon, if the glider doesn't close the spoilers, or 2) the
glider is high enough and close enough to the airport to land with
full spoilers out.

If you have a radio, you could calmly call the glider and say "hey
glider, are your spoilers open ?" Don't say the word release, because
he might release. I still wouldn't do this close to the ground.

Todd Smith
3S

BT wrote:
ahh.. excuse me... but I do not think the rudder waggle is the release
signal.. at least in the USA

Rudder waggle was the "release at your discretion" signal at a lot of
places in the USA. The "check your glider" signal is fairly recent
innovation (past 10 or 15 years?). You can complain about training if
you like, but I bet the majority of US pilots will nonetheless release
immediately if you waggle the rudder at them...

Marc

BT wrote:


I agree, calm radios first, but if the frequency is so busy that I cannot
get a word in.

Is this a matter of politeness - not wanting to interrupt another pilot?
If it's a safety issue, I think the towpilot should just start
transmitting. I'd expect the pilot you are towing would be able hear
you, even it another pilot is talking. You are less than 200 feet from
the glider, and the other pilot is much farther away, so your radio
should overpower him. Or doesn't it work out that way?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Marc Ramsey wrote:


You can complain about training if you like,
but I bet the majority of US pilots will
nonetheless release immediately if you waggle
the rudder at them....


In which case complaints about training and/or preparation on the part
of the glider pilot are definitely in order. When did we start blaming
tow pilots for glider pilots' mistakes?

It sounds like the best way to reduce the number of rudder-signal
miscues would be to include them in the pre-flight briefing, and not to
refrain from using them simply because we have lost confidence in our
own training establishment.


Jack

You may over power and he might hear you.. he may just get a loud squeal..

BT

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:0r%%i.5677$B21.130@trndny07...
BT wrote:


I agree, calm radios first, but if the frequency is so busy that I cannot
get a word in.

Is this a matter of politeness - not wanting to interrupt another pilot?
If it's a safety issue, I think the towpilot should just start
transmitting. I'd expect the pilot you are towing would be able hear you,
even it another pilot is talking. You are less than 200 feet from the
glider, and the other pilot is much farther away, so your radio should
overpower him. Or doesn't it work out that way?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

training and flight reviews.. do you review signals in-flight as part of
your flight review?

Do not blame the tow pilot if the glider pilot does not know the signals.
The tow pilot will not learn a different signal for every pilot.
That is why we have "standards".

Scenario #1.. instructor coordinates with tow pilot.. at 400 ft, give me a
rudder waggle, dependent on the airfield, this should be high enough to
allow for a safe landing back on the airfield
so at 400ft.. the tow pilot gives the requested signal.. and the glider
pilot releases..

The instructor now has a reason to not endorse the completion of the flight
review, per 61.56
and to request the pilot receive additional training in the "standard
soaring signals" to complete his 61.56 requirements.

Scenario #2.. a slow climb in progress.. tow pilot notices the spoilers are
open and calls the glider..
no response... another call.. no response.. other traffic on the radio.. or
the glider pilot has his radio volume set to low
to the tow pilot "resorts to the standard signal" and waves his rudder...
yes.. from this location the glider could make a safe recovery to the
airfield if he "forgets and releases"
but the glider pilot releases,, does not realize his spoilers are open.. and
lands short of the airfield.

BT
CFIG and Tow Pilot

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
...
BT wrote:
ahh.. excuse me... but I do not think the rudder waggle is the release
signal.. at least in the USA

Rudder waggle was the "release at your discretion" signal at a lot of
places in the USA. The "check your glider" signal is fairly recent
innovation (past 10 or 15 years?). You can complain about training if you
like, but I bet the majority of US pilots will nonetheless release
immediately if you waggle the rudder at them...

Marc

I don't blame tow pilots for anything. I just don't like the signal.
It's too easy for that small percentage of us (like me) that when
anticipating a particular signal, will occasionally misread the signal
that was provided as the one that was expected. I really appreciate a
tow pilot who allows for the failings of us bozos at the other end.

The rest of you, of course, are absolutely perfect, never get confused,
do your checklists 100% perfectly every time, always wear clean
underwear, etc., and if someone screws up at what you can do so
perfectly, it's their own darn fault...

Marc

BT wrote:
training and flight reviews.. do you review signals in-flight as part of
your flight review?

Do not blame the tow pilot if the glider pilot does not know the signals.
The tow pilot will not learn a different signal for every pilot.
That is why we have "standards".

Scenario #1.. instructor coordinates with tow pilot.. at 400 ft, give me a
rudder waggle, dependent on the airfield, this should be high enough to
allow for a safe landing back on the airfield
so at 400ft.. the tow pilot gives the requested signal.. and the glider
pilot releases..

The instructor now has a reason to not endorse the completion of the flight
review, per 61.56
and to request the pilot receive additional training in the "standard
soaring signals" to complete his 61.56 requirements.

Scenario #2.. a slow climb in progress.. tow pilot notices the spoilers are
open and calls the glider..
no response... another call.. no response.. other traffic on the radio.. or
the glider pilot has his radio volume set to low
to the tow pilot "resorts to the standard signal" and waves his rudder...
yes.. from this location the glider could make a safe recovery to the
airfield if he "forgets and releases"
but the glider pilot releases,, does not realize his spoilers are open.. and
lands short of the airfield.

BT
CFIG and Tow Pilot

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
...
BT wrote:
ahh.. excuse me... but I do not think the rudder waggle is the release
signal.. at least in the USA
Rudder waggle was the "release at your discretion" signal at a lot of
places in the USA. The "check your glider" signal is fairly recent
innovation (past 10 or 15 years?). You can complain about training if you
like, but I bet the majority of US pilots will nonetheless release
immediately if you waggle the rudder at them...

Marc

On Nov 18, 8:25 pm, Marc Ramsey wrote:
I don't blame tow pilots for anything. I just don't like the signal.
It's too easy for that small percentage of us (like me) that when
anticipating a particular signal, will occasionally misread the signal
that was provided as the one that was expected. I really appreciate a
tow pilot who allows for the failings of us bozos at the other end.

The rest of you, of course, are absolutely perfect, never get confused,
do your checklists 100% perfectly every time, always wear clean
underwear, etc., and if someone screws up at what you can do so
perfectly, it's their own darn fault...

Marc


Marc,

I suggest that you do whatever you need to, and retrain yourself that
if you see a signal from the tow pilot, you will WAIT and think to
yourself, "Is that a wave-off or a waggle ?" The wave off is not a
signal for "you need to release in 1 second". That signal is the tow
pilot pulling HIS release.

Todd Smith
3S