dogfight

A buddy of mine recorded some History Channel show and I watched it.
The show was "Dogfight", and this episode was on P-51s fighting
ME109s, FW190, ME262s, and some Japanese planes.

In one recreation, a P51 pilot has an unusual ME109 chasing him. The
plane is actually out performing his P51 -- that wasn't usual with
109s. I don't remember exactly how long the ME109 was on him, but it
was about to be able to lead him just enough to take him out
(according to the P51 pilot, and, how he knew that I don't know). I
liked that they actually interviewed the P51 pilots who described what
was going on.

Anyway all of the sudden the P51 pilot tries a trick: he pulls the
stick back hard against his gut, at the same time jams hard bottom
rudder, the 51 spins out, sort of flat, and as it swings around the
pilot hit the fire button and laid out a stream of .50 caliber through
which the German flew and was knocked out.

I want to learn how to do that trick!

It's a pretty cool show, amazing CGI recreations. I slow motioned the
maneuver -- all the control surfaces looked right at each stage.

wrote in news:93e58032-93f3-4f75-8000-
:

A buddy of mine recorded some History Channel show and I watched it.
The show was "Dogfight", and this episode was on P-51s fighting
ME109s, FW190, ME262s, and some Japanese planes.

In one recreation, a P51 pilot has an unusual ME109 chasing him. The
plane is actually out performing his P51 -- that wasn't usual with
109s. I don't remember exactly how long the ME109 was on him, but it
was about to be able to lead him just enough to take him out
(according to the P51 pilot, and, how he knew that I don't know). I
liked that they actually interviewed the P51 pilots who described what
was going on.

Anyway all of the sudden the P51 pilot tries a trick: he pulls the
stick back hard against his gut, at the same time jams hard bottom
rudder, the 51 spins out, sort of flat, and as it swings around the
pilot hit the fire button and laid out a stream of .50 caliber through
which the German flew and was knocked out.

I want to learn how to do that trick!

Snap roll. I suppose it'd do the trick allright. Dudley'd tell you.

I've seen that program and it's not bad. Some of the animation is a little
primitive. Airplanes don't move exactly like they do in the program, but it
's not bad program.
I saw a good one on Subaro Sakai's most famous battle, and a couple of good
ones about Korea, which up til now I knew little or nothing about.


Bertie

Snap roll. I suppose it'd do the trick allright. Dudley'd tell you.


That's sort of it, and yet in this case the plane never really rolled
over -- it was never inverted.

Hard to describe, but: instead of spinning after he induced the stall,
he relaxed the stick and kicked hard bottom rudder. The plane kind of
looped sideways, if you can picture that.

That particular move may be on the "trailer" for the particular DVD
I'm talking about, the P51, on history channel's web site.

I've got to get to an airshow where a P51 is flown.

wrote:
A buddy of mine recorded some History Channel show and I watched it.
The show was "Dogfight", and this episode was on P-51s fighting
ME109s, FW190, ME262s, and some Japanese planes.

In one recreation, a P51 pilot has an unusual ME109 chasing him. The
plane is actually out performing his P51 -- that wasn't usual with
109s. I don't remember exactly how long the ME109 was on him, but it
was about to be able to lead him just enough to take him out
(according to the P51 pilot, and, how he knew that I don't know). I
liked that they actually interviewed the P51 pilots who described what
was going on.

Anyway all of the sudden the P51 pilot tries a trick: he pulls the
stick back hard against his gut, at the same time jams hard bottom
rudder, the 51 spins out, sort of flat, and as it swings around the
pilot hit the fire button and laid out a stream of .50 caliber through
which the German flew and was knocked out.

I want to learn how to do that trick!

It's a pretty cool show, amazing CGI recreations. I slow motioned the
maneuver -- all the control surfaces looked right at each stage.


Snap Roll. Isn't the best idea in the 51 but doable if you get the speed
down below corner. Depending on the GW; down around 250 maximum. It will
snap before it loads all the way up to max structural g which is
mandatory unless you want to leave the wings and the fuselage as 3
separate parts in the sky.

Bertie's right. The show models are good but not totally realistic. I've
seen some slew moves on the program that you would really need vectored
thrust to perform.

As to the 109 out performing the 51. The 109 in skilled hands was a
deadly opponent at low to medium altitudes. It really boils down to what
I like to call "The difference between the cockpits", or how good one
pilot is vs how bad the other one might be.




--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
news
wrote:
A buddy of mine recorded some History Channel show and I watched it.
The show was "Dogfight", and this episode was on P-51s fighting
ME109s, FW190, ME262s, and some Japanese planes.

In one recreation, a P51 pilot has an unusual ME109 chasing him. The
plane is actually out performing his P51 -- that wasn't usual with
109s. I don't remember exactly how long the ME109 was on him, but it
was about to be able to lead him just enough to take him out
(according to the P51 pilot, and, how he knew that I don't know). I
liked that they actually interviewed the P51 pilots who described what
was going on.

Anyway all of the sudden the P51 pilot tries a trick: he pulls the
stick back hard against his gut, at the same time jams hard bottom
rudder, the 51 spins out, sort of flat, and as it swings around the
pilot hit the fire button and laid out a stream of .50 caliber through
which the German flew and was knocked out.

I want to learn how to do that trick!

It's a pretty cool show, amazing CGI recreations. I slow motioned the
maneuver -- all the control surfaces looked right at each stage.


Snap Roll. Isn't the best idea in the 51 but doable if you get the speed
down below corner. Depending on the GW; down around 250 maximum.



This is what I've understood about the airplane. I have a manual for it
describing the spin characteristics. i wouldn't want a departure at low
altitude in one of those things! The feeling has to be less than comfy.

It will
snap before it loads all the way up to max structural g which is
mandatory unless you want to leave the wings and the fuselage as 3
separate parts in the sky.

Bertie's right. The show models are good but not totally realistic. I've
seen some slew moves on the program that you would really need vectored
thrust to perform.


Yeah, those animations are pretty to watch but get very confusing when they
start manuevering hard and the airplane goes off in a different direction
to what you might expect.

As to the 109 out performing the 51. The 109 in skilled hands was a
deadly opponent at low to medium altitudes. It really boils down to what
I like to call "The difference between the cockpits", or how good one
pilot is vs how bad the other one might be.


As proven by some spectacularly one sided battles won by the underdog..


Bertie

Saw that episode too. It is a good show, I particularly like the
interviews.

Their CG is better than what is commonly shown and the aircraft types are
correct.

As for the ME109, I seem to remember that the Germans made some number of
modifications late in the war, with higher boost pressures.


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news | wrote:
| A buddy of mine recorded some History Channel show and I watched it.
| The show was "Dogfight", and this episode was on P-51s fighting
| ME109s, FW190, ME262s, and some Japanese planes.
|
| In one recreation, a P51 pilot has an unusual ME109 chasing him. The
| plane is actually out performing his P51 -- that wasn't usual with
| 109s. I don't remember exactly how long the ME109 was on him, but it
| was about to be able to lead him just enough to take him out
| (according to the P51 pilot, and, how he knew that I don't know). I
| liked that they actually interviewed the P51 pilots who described what
| was going on.
|
| Anyway all of the sudden the P51 pilot tries a trick: he pulls the
| stick back hard against his gut, at the same time jams hard bottom
| rudder, the 51 spins out, sort of flat, and as it swings around the
| pilot hit the fire button and laid out a stream of .50 caliber through
| which the German flew and was knocked out.
|
| I want to learn how to do that trick!
|
| It's a pretty cool show, amazing CGI recreations. I slow motioned the
| maneuver -- all the control surfaces looked right at each stage.
|
|
| Snap Roll. Isn't the best idea in the 51 but doable if you get the speed
| down below corner. Depending on the GW; down around 250 maximum. It will
| snap before it loads all the way up to max structural g which is
| mandatory unless you want to leave the wings and the fuselage as 3
| separate parts in the sky.
|
| Bertie's right. The show models are good but not totally realistic. I've
| seen some slew moves on the program that you would really need vectored
| thrust to perform.
|
| As to the 109 out performing the 51. The 109 in skilled hands was a
| deadly opponent at low to medium altitudes. It really boils down to what
| I like to call "The difference between the cockpits", or how good one
| pilot is vs how bad the other one might be.
|
|
|
|
| --
| Dudley Henriques

wrote in news:8d05f97a-c082-4388-8a70-cfca37e62bc8
@e67g2000hsc.googlegroups.com:


Snap roll. I suppose it'd do the trick allright. Dudley'd tell you.


That's sort of it, and yet in this case the plane never really rolled
over -- it was never inverted.

Hard to describe, but: instead of spinning after he induced the stall,
he relaxed the stick and kicked hard bottom rudder. The plane kind of
looped sideways, if you can picture that.

Sounds a bit like a vertical reverse, maybe, which is sort of a partial
snap from one side to the other.

That particular move may be on the "trailer" for the particular DVD
I'm talking about, the P51, on history channel's web site.

I've got to get to an airshow where a P51 is flown.


They're nice to watch do aerobatics, all right. The Merlin makes a nice
noise!



Bertie

Snap Roll.

I can't find the maneuver as it was depicted in the show either in my
Aerobat manual or in Neil William's book.

The snap roll in the Aerobat manual is what I was thinking of when
Bertie mentioned snap roll -- essentially an accelerated spin in the
direction of flight which involves inversion about the longitudinal
axis. Maybe there are other versions of snap rolls that don't "invert"
you about the longitudinal axis. I dunno.

Let me describe the P51 maneuver this way: Imagine a car driving along
a gentle curve being chased by another car -- the first car hits a
patch of ice and does a rapid 360, recovering in the same direction as
it started.

That's pretty much what the plane did (although it climbed some during
whatever kind of stall this was). Anyway now imagine the headlights of
the spinning car are machine guns: as the spinning car gets to about
270 degrees from original heading and the chasing car is starting to
go past the guns start to fire, continuing to fire as the first car
spins back to its orginal heading, nailing the second car the whole
way as it goes by.

The P51 was never "upside down" as you'd expect in a snap roll. Maybe
a spin out?

Bang -- down went the 109.

Speaking of airframes coming apart, I don't recall ever reading about
such things happening in WWII dogfights. It seems it would given the
complexity and fear of the situation. Did it happen much? Maybe that
kind of thing wasn't reported because it's not exactly a heroic end to
an aircraft / pilot.

I understand disintegration was far more common in WWI.

Yeah, those animations are pretty to watch but get very confusing when they
start manuevering hard and the airplane goes off in a different direction
to what you might expect.

Good point, there's really no telling whether the animators got it
right or just wanted it to look really amazing and cool. If the pilot
objected they didn't air his objections. The show isn't into that kind
of analysis. It's more of a "look at THIS!!" kinda thing.

wrote in news:f28fe8d7-a571-4199-ae26-7a76108c2ca8
@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com:

Snap Roll.

I can't find the maneuver as it was depicted in the show either in my
Aerobat manual or in Neil William's book.

The snap roll in the Aerobat manual is what I was thinking of when
Bertie mentioned snap roll -- essentially an accelerated spin in the
direction of flight which involves inversion about the longitudinal
axis. Maybe there are other versions of snap rolls that don't "invert"
you about the longitudinal axis. I dunno.

Couldn;t find it on the history channel website.

Let me describe the P51 maneuver this way: Imagine a car driving along
a gentle curve being chased by another car -- the first car hits a
patch of ice and does a rapid 360, recovering in the same direction as
it started.

That's pretty much what the plane did (although it climbed some during
whatever kind of stall this was). Anyway now imagine the headlights of
the spinning car are machine guns: as the spinning car gets to about
270 degrees from original heading and the chasing car is starting to
go past the guns start to fire, continuing to fire as the first car
spins back to its orginal heading, nailing the second car the whole
way as it goes by.

The P51 was never "upside down" as you'd expect in a snap roll. Maybe
a spin out?


Doesn't really sound possible. About the only way that could happen is if
his speed was very, very low and it was some sort of precession manuever.
That's pretty unlikely. It could have been a sort of flat spin manuever.
During a snap roll, though, the pitch is pretty dramatic and if you were
trailing an airplane doing one, you'd only see it's upper side. I'd say
this is probably what he did for at least part of the maunever and the guys
doing the animation just couldn't grasp the way it works real life.
I watched one of them with an exchange between a Wildcat and a Zero and the
Wildcat pilot's description of what he was doing contained more info for me
than the animation, though the animation did help map it out.
I saw another one where they were talking about a scissors manuever. I
think it was between an F4 and a Mig 21. Again, the animations were sort of
faithful to the narrative, but just didn't make 100% sense.

The closest thing to the spin out you're talking about is a precession
manuever, though. I'd guess it's more than possible to do something like
that in a Mustang, but it would almost certainly involve a lot of roll as
well as yaw..

Bertie

Bang -- down went the 109.

Speaking of airframes coming apart, I don't recall ever reading about
such things happening in WWII dogfights. It seems it would given the
complexity and fear of the situation. Did it happen much? Maybe that
kind of thing wasn't reported because it's not exactly a heroic end to
an aircraft / pilot.

I understand disintegration was far more common in WWI.