flaps again

Flyers,

First, as a reminder, some may recall that I had unwittingly landed one day
in Williamsburg, VA without the flaps. I didn't notice they had not
deployed until my next pre-flight when I found them INOP. They I remembered
out fast I came over the fence and controlling the airspeed was more
difficult then ever before. I took a lot of heat from other pilots that
basicly said, "How in the world could any pilot worth a darn EVER not
realize that their flaps didn't come out! THAT would NEVER happen to ME!!"

I thought I would relate a story that happened to my plane partner and I the
other day. My partner hadn't flown in a while and we went out to do some
maneuvers and some landings to get him current and proficient again.
Everything went fine until our last landing.

Throughout this last pattern I noticed that we were always fast on every
leg. I admonished him to slow down and get down. He was some what
distracted by a helicopter hovering just off the ground and off to the left
side of the final approach course. I notice that he had 30 degrees of flaps
in and he started to drift the IAS out of the white arc. I again sounded
off that his AS was way off and to fix it.

Then it hit me...how in the world could he have flaps 30 with 16 or 17
inches of MP at our decent rate and be out of the white arc. That is not
possible. I looked over my right shoulder and saw the reason...the flaps
were fully retracted.

He did not notice and was attempting to fix the problem by pulling the power
and trimming the nose up. (unwittingly setting himself up for a no flap
landing as I did in VA). We were on short final and I hesitated to say
anything as not to distract him at this critical time, but reflexively my
mouth just blurted out, "Dude...I have some really bad news for
you...you've got no flaps at all!" At first he wanted to go around, but the
AS wasn't too bad and I said, "No...just keep this attitude and come in
flat." That is what he did and we had no problems.

I kind-of feel vindicated that another pilot had the same mild distractions
in the pattern, was setting his flaps as always and never noticed at each of
three changes that no flaps what-so-ever were being provided. He would have
landed fast and long, braked hard and wondered why he had so much difficulty
slowing down. He would not have realized what happened until and unless he
did the next pre-flight and set the flaps to full for inspection.

This was a new motor bought from Cessna. Turns out that one of the brushes
was hanging up in it's housing and not making contact with the commutator.
He widened the housing and that was the end of that problem.

Kobra
C177RG

PS: and now Multi-engine, Multi-engine instrument, Multi-engine commercial
rated!! whoa whooh!! Regionals...here I come.

Was this experience in the Cessna?

On Dec 30, 9:06*pm, "Kobra" wrote:
Flyers,

First, as a reminder, some may recall that I had unwittingly landed one day
in Williamsburg, VA without the flaps. *I didn't notice they had not
deployed until my next pre-flight when I found them INOP. *They I remembered
out fast I came over the fence and controlling the airspeed was more
difficult then ever before. *I took a lot of heat from other pilots that
basicly said, "How in the world could any pilot worth a darn EVER not
realize that their flaps didn't come out! *THAT would NEVER happen to ME!!"

I thought I would relate a story that happened to my plane partner and I the
other day. *My partner hadn't flown in a while and we went out to do some
maneuvers and some landings to get him current and proficient again.
Everything went fine until our last landing.

Throughout this last pattern I noticed that we were always fast on every
leg. *I admonished him to slow down and get down. *He was some what
distracted by a helicopter hovering just off the ground and off to the left
side of the final approach course. *I notice that he had 30 degrees of flaps
in and he started to drift the IAS out of the white arc. *I again sounded
off that his AS was way off and to fix it.

Then it hit me...how in the world could he have flaps 30 with 16 or 17
inches of MP at our decent rate and be out of the white arc. *That is not
possible. *I looked over my right shoulder and saw the reason...the flaps
were fully retracted.

He did not notice and was attempting to fix the problem by pulling the power
and trimming the nose up. *(unwittingly setting himself up for a no flap
landing as I did in VA). *We were on short final and I hesitated to say
anything as not to distract him at this critical time, but reflexively my
mouth just blurted out, *"Dude...I have some really bad news for
you...you've got no flaps at all!" *At first he wanted to go around, but the
AS wasn't too bad and I said, "No...just keep this attitude and come in
flat." *That is what he did and we had no problems.

I kind-of feel vindicated that another pilot had the same mild distractions
in the pattern, was setting his flaps as always and never noticed at each of
three changes that no flaps what-so-ever were being provided. *He would have
landed fast and long, braked hard and wondered why he had so much difficulty
slowing down. *He would not have realized what happened until and unless he
did the next pre-flight and set the flaps to full for inspection.

This was a new motor bought from Cessna. *Turns out that one of the brushes
was hanging up in it's housing and not making contact with the commutator.
He widened the housing and that was the end of that problem.

Kobra
C177RG

PS: *and now Multi-engine, Multi-engine instrument, Multi-engine commercial
rated!! whoa whooh!! Regionals...here I come.

On Dec 30, 9:15*pm, Tina wrote:
Was this experience in the Cessna?

On Dec 30, 9:06*pm, "Kobra" wrote:



Flyers,

First, as a reminder, some may recall that I had unwittingly landed one day
in Williamsburg, VA without the flaps. *I didn't notice they had not
deployed until my next pre-flight when I found them INOP. *They I remembered
out fast I came over the fence and controlling the airspeed was more
difficult then ever before. *I took a lot of heat from other pilots that
basicly said, "How in the world could any pilot worth a darn EVER not
realize that their flaps didn't come out! *THAT would NEVER happen to ME!!"

I thought I would relate a story that happened to my plane partner and I the
other day. *My partner hadn't flown in a while and we went out to do some
maneuvers and some landings to get him current and proficient again.
Everything went fine until our last landing.

Throughout this last pattern I noticed that we were always fast on every
leg. *I admonished him to slow down and get down. *He was some what
distracted by a helicopter hovering just off the ground and off to the left
side of the final approach course. *I notice that he had 30 degrees of flaps
in and he started to drift the IAS out of the white arc. *I again sounded
off that his AS was way off and to fix it.

Then it hit me...how in the world could he have flaps 30 with 16 or 17
inches of MP at our decent rate and be out of the white arc. *That is not
possible. *I looked over my right shoulder and saw the reason...the flaps
were fully retracted.

He did not notice and was attempting to fix the problem by pulling the power
and trimming the nose up. *(unwittingly setting himself up for a no flap
landing as I did in VA). *We were on short final and I hesitated to say
anything as not to distract him at this critical time, but reflexively my
mouth just blurted out, *"Dude...I have some really bad news for
you...you've got no flaps at all!" *At first he wanted to go around, but the
AS wasn't too bad and I said, "No...just keep this attitude and come in
flat." *That is what he did and we had no problems.

I kind-of feel vindicated that another pilot had the same mild distractions
in the pattern, was setting his flaps as always and never noticed at each of
three changes that no flaps what-so-ever were being provided. *He would have
landed fast and long, braked hard and wondered why he had so much difficulty
slowing down. *He would not have realized what happened until and unless he
did the next pre-flight and set the flaps to full for inspection.

This was a new motor bought from Cessna. *Turns out that one of the brushes
was hanging up in it's housing and not making contact with the commutator.

I love the manual flaps in my Cessna 172E

Al
SFF
Spokane, WA

Kobra wrote:
Flyers,

First, as a reminder, some may recall that I had unwittingly landed one day
in Williamsburg, VA without the flaps. I didn't notice they had not
deployed until my next pre-flight when I found them INOP.

On Dec 30, 9:38*pm, Al wrote:
I love the manual flaps in my Cessna 172E

Al
SFF
Spokane, WA



Kobra wrote:
Flyers,

First, as a reminder, some may recall that I had unwittingly landed one day
in Williamsburg, VA without the flaps. *I didn't notice they had not
deployed until my next pre-flight when I found them INOP. *- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ya know, flaps are not the only way to land... Once you have mastered
the basics and gotten the rating, you need to keep expanding your zone
of comfort...
Try some half flap landings, followed by quarter flap landings,
followed by no flap landings... Cross wind landings... And on a light
wind day emphasis, LIGHT do a downwind landing and a downwind
takeoff...
The aircraft will feel different scary different for some and the
sight picture out the windshield will be different... All of these
will be learning experiences that will increase your zone of comfort
in handling the plane in the future...
The major difference between Joe Pilot you and me and some hotshot
airshow or military pilot is that they have worked their zone of
comfort up to having the aircraft on the very edge of 'out of
control...
Notice I am not advocating doing dangerous things, but simply,
stepwise, to increase your zone of comfort inside of the aircrafts
performance envelope...

denny

"Kobra" wrote in message
...

I kind-of feel vindicated that another pilot had the same mild
distractions
in the pattern, was setting his flaps as always and never noticed at each
of
three changes that no flaps what-so-ever were being provided.

You shouldn't, it really just indicates both of you have a problem.
Transitioning from 0 to 30/40 degrees flaps changes the pitch and trim
handling on a 150, 152, 172, 177, 182 so much - if you can't sense the
difference, you really need to spend a LOT more time with the airplane.

"Maxwell" wrote in
news

"Kobra" wrote in message
...

I kind-of feel vindicated that another pilot had the same mild
distractions
in the pattern, was setting his flaps as always and never noticed at
each of
three changes that no flaps what-so-ever were being provided.

You shouldn't, it really just indicates both of you have a problem.

Mmm, yeah, but the real lesson here is it's foolish to mock someone for a
mistake, better to say "there but for the grace of god" or to put it
another way "pride goeth before a stall"
Anybody can **** up anything on any airplane at any time. Looking around
constantly for the error you are almost certainly making at any given
moment is the hallmark of a really good aviator.

Bertie

Hmmmm..............

In our Cessna 172, flap extension also involved very signigicant trim
changes/speed and power changes. The lack of flap extension one time
(bad switch) was unmistaken and immediately apparent..

What Model Cessna?

I as well wonder how this would not be noticed, but my experience is
limited to one model Cessna.

Our (now) Warrior has a big black lever, NO DOUBT when the flaps are
down!

Wondering... (?)

Dave



..On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 21:06:17 -0500, "Kobra" wrote:

Flyers,

First, as a reminder, some may recall that I had unwittingly landed one day
in Williamsburg, VA without the flaps. I didn't notice they had not
deployed until my next pre-flight when I found them INOP. They I remembered
out fast I came over the fence and controlling the airspeed was more
difficult then ever before. I took a lot of heat from other pilots that
basicly said, "How in the world could any pilot worth a darn EVER not
realize that their flaps didn't come out! THAT would NEVER happen to ME!!"

I thought I would relate a story that happened to my plane partner and I the
other day. My partner hadn't flown in a while and we went out to do some
maneuvers and some landings to get him current and proficient again.
Everything went fine until our last landing.

Throughout this last pattern I noticed that we were always fast on every
leg. I admonished him to slow down and get down. He was some what
distracted by a helicopter hovering just off the ground and off to the left
side of the final approach course. I notice that he had 30 degrees of flaps
in and he started to drift the IAS out of the white arc. I again sounded
off that his AS was way off and to fix it.

Then it hit me...how in the world could he have flaps 30 with 16 or 17
inches of MP at our decent rate and be out of the white arc. That is not
possible. I looked over my right shoulder and saw the reason...the flaps
were fully retracted.

He did not notice and was attempting to fix the problem by pulling the power
and trimming the nose up. (unwittingly setting himself up for a no flap
landing as I did in VA). We were on short final and I hesitated to say
anything as not to distract him at this critical time, but reflexively my
mouth just blurted out, "Dude...I have some really bad news for
you...you've got no flaps at all!" At first he wanted to go around, but the
AS wasn't too bad and I said, "No...just keep this attitude and come in
flat." That is what he did and we had no problems.

I kind-of feel vindicated that another pilot had the same mild distractions
in the pattern, was setting his flaps as always and never noticed at each of
three changes that no flaps what-so-ever were being provided. He would have
landed fast and long, braked hard and wondered why he had so much difficulty
slowing down. He would not have realized what happened until and unless he
did the next pre-flight and set the flaps to full for inspection.

This was a new motor bought from Cessna. Turns out that one of the brushes
was hanging up in it's housing and not making contact with the commutator.
He widened the housing and that was the end of that problem.

Kobra
C177RG

PS: and now Multi-engine, Multi-engine instrument, Multi-engine commercial
rated!! whoa whooh!! Regionals...here I come.

On Dec 31, 8:59 am, Dave wrote:
Hmmmm..............

In our Cessna 172, flap extension also involved very signigicant trim
changes/speed and power changes. The lack of flap extension one time
(bad switch) was unmistaken and immediately apparent..

What Model Cessna?

I as well wonder how this would not be noticed, but my experience is
limited to one model Cessna.

I've flown the 150, 172, 180, 182, 185 and 206 and all
except the 180 and 185 do the same thing. The stab is in the downwash
off the flaps and the nose will rise when flaps are applied. The
180/185 have the stab mounted lower and out of the downwash and will
need nose-up trim with flap, if I remember right; haven't flown one
for seven or eight years. I flew the 177 a long time ago but can't
rememer what it did.
There are some other high-wing airplanes that don't do this.
They'll put the nose down with flap, which is what would be expected
as the CP moves aft with flaps going down.
My old Auster had two trim tabs: One manually controlled,
the other connected to the flap system so that it kept the attitude
constant wherever the flaps were set. Worked well. Haven't seen it on
any other airplane. They were Zap flaps, too; the airplane would fly
very slowly with them down and could be glided very steeply without
gaining airspeed. To meet military specs, no doubt. Pictures:
http://www.beloblog.com/KGW_Blogs/weather/P6260159.JPG
http://www.forceaerienne.forces.gc.c...lpaper/aop.jpg

Our (now) Warrior has a big black lever, NO DOUBT when the flaps are
down!

Flaps for *real* pilots.You can spot one of those: big biceps
on the right arm :-)

Dan

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 07:45:44 -0600, "Maxwell"
wrote:


"Kobra" wrote in message
...

I kind-of feel vindicated that another pilot had the same mild
distractions
in the pattern, was setting his flaps as always and never noticed at each
of
three changes that no flaps what-so-ever were being provided.

You shouldn't, it really just indicates both of you have a problem.
Transitioning from 0 to 30/40 degrees flaps changes the pitch and trim
handling on a 150, 152, 172, 177, 182 so much - if you can't sense the
difference, you really need to spend a LOT more time with the airplane.

I agree with Maxwell. Within very small ranges, power settings and
aircraft configuration will always be pretty much the same. If you
have signficantly different power settings than you are expecting and
usually use for the configuration you have selected, look for
something to be set wrong or not working - flaps, gear, whatever.