A-10 in WWII??

We've had a couple scenarios of aircraft going back in
time and speculation on what sort of effect they'd have.

I just saw a show on the A-10 Warthog with a top speed
of 420 mph. That's WWII fighter speeds (although I'm
not certain at what altitude).

Since an A-10 can carry something like 16,000 pounds of
weapons, at the speeds it flies, it would be one hell of
a WWII bomber. I'll bet even Art would ditch Willie in
a second to fly such a machine.

But what about as a fighter? Other than the extreme
ruggedness of the aircraft, would it have been any good
in fighter contests, especially in Europe, but in the
Pacific as well?

Seems the 30mm canon is a bit over kill for fighters.
Probably just load it up with a bunch of 20mm canons
in wings and as would fit in the nose.

It wouldn't be much good taking over mustang escort
duty since its range is only about 800 miles.

The aircraft seems very maneuverable, but I have no clue
how its roll rate, climb, dive and turn/stall performance
compare with a late WWII fighter of German or Japanese
pedigree.

Could an A-10 hold its own, or best, an Me 109 or FW 190?
An Oscar, Zero, Tony, Frank, whatever?

No doubt the marines in the Pacific would love the A-10
and the harrassed German ground transport would really
take a thrashing if this aircraft showed up. But would
the fighter opposition be quaking in their flight boots?


SMH

Few people know this, but the A-10 is actually a stolen WWII German design.
Sabotage at the factory and defeatist whiners kept the project from flying
before VE Day, but in 20 years the original plans will be released by the
military, clearly showing the RLM stamp in the upper left corner.

I know its true because I read it on Venik's website.

Gordon

nt (Krztalizer) wrote in message ...
Few people know this, but the A-10 is actually a stolen WWII German design.
Sabotage at the factory and defeatist whiners kept the project from flying
before VE Day, but in 20 years the original plans will be released by the
military, clearly showing the RLM stamp in the upper left corner.

I know its true because I read it on Venik's website.

Gordon



is it this model?

http://www.luft46.com/junkers/jugap.html

the tail assembley's there but the rest of it looks more like a A-9

nt (Krztalizer) wrote in message ...
Few people know this, but the A-10 is actually a stolen WWII German design.
Sabotage at the factory and defeatist whiners kept the project from flying
before VE Day, but in 20 years the original plans will be released by the
military, clearly showing the RLM stamp in the upper left corner.

I know its true because I read it on Venik's website.

Gordon

It IS actually a stolen German design- a nameless Junkers Attack
Project which started in 1941.
From "Luftwaffe Secret Projects, Ground Attack & Special-Purpose
Aircraft" page 36:
" In mid-1941 the Development Department of the Junkerswerke in Dessau
commenced work on a project for a low-level and ground attack aircraft
as a replacement for the Hs 129. The project study involved a rather
plump-looking mid-wing aircraft with two wingroot-mounted turbojets.
According to works documentation, the turbojets were to have been two
Daimler-Benz 109-007 ZTL units which allowed a considerable increase
in performance at a reduced fuel consumption. Designed by Prof Dr-Ing
Karl Leist, head of the Abteilung Sondertriedwerk (Special Engines
Department) at the Daimler-Benz AG, the two-circuit or bypass
turbojets had a larger air intake and overall diameter than the
single-circuit BMW 003 and Jumo 004 turbojets.
Besides this new type of turbojet, strong armor plating was to have
been provided for the fuselage and powerplants. As a ground attack
aircraft, it was to have been equipped with four 30mm MK 103 and and
four 20mm MG 151/20 cannon. The undercarriage main wheels were to
retract forwards into the fuselage sides as shown in the three-view
drawing. As litle experience had been gathered with nosewheels which
for a long time had been rejected by the RLM as too " American", a
retractable pneumatically-sprung skid replaced the nosewheel.
The long gestation period of turbojet development at Daimler-Benz that
resulted in the first turbojet test-bed runs only in March 1943, led
to termination of the project. Several decades later, this project
served as the forerunner for the US Fairchild A-10A Thunderbolt (also
known as the Warthog) ground attack and low-level combat aircraft
which cannot deny its resemblence to the nameless Junkers ground
attack aircraft."

On the next page is pictured the A-10, a three-view of the Junkers
project, and both a schematic drawing and actual photo of the DB
109-007 turbojet on its engine test-bed. Accompanying note on the
A-10:

" A Fairchild A-10 Thunderbolt prototype. Its similarity to the
Junkers design scheme is UNMISTAKEABLE. The propulsion units, mounted
in lateral fuselage nacelles were two General Electric TF 34-GE 100
bypass turbojets..."

As for the A-10s revolver cannon- so what? The Germans had a range of
heavy Bordwaffe in development including the Duka 88. Even the A-10 in
WW2 would have been downed if hit in the engines with that baby!

Rob

In article ,
(robert arndt) writes:
nt (Krztalizer) wrote in message ...
Few people know this, but the A-10 is actually a stolen WWII German design.
Sabotage at the factory and defeatist whiners kept the project from flying
before VE Day, but in 20 years the original plans will be released by the
military, clearly showing the RLM stamp in the upper left corner.

I know its true because I read it on Venik's website.

Gordon

It IS actually a stolen German design- a nameless Junkers Attack

That's like fishing for Farm Trout, Gordon,

(For those unfamiliar, Aquaculture Trout are raised in controlled
ponds, and generally fed Dog Food. To catch one, just put some
Kibble on a hook * toss it in)

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
nt (Krztalizer) wrote in message
...
Few people know this, but the A-10 is actually a stolen WWII German
design.
Sabotage at the factory and defeatist whiners kept the project from
flying
before VE Day, but in 20 years the original plans will be released by
the
military, clearly showing the RLM stamp in the upper left corner.

I know its true because I read it on Venik's website.

Gordon

It IS actually a stolen German design-

Holy Crap, the resident Aryan Superiority Advocate actually took that
dangling piece of bait...

Brooks

snip

In message , robert
arndt writes
(Krztalizer) wrote in message
...
Few people know this, but the A-10 is actually a stolen WWII German design.
Sabotage at the factory and defeatist whiners kept the project from flying
before VE Day, but in 20 years the original plans will be released by the
military, clearly showing the RLM stamp in the upper left corner.

I know its true because I read it on Venik's website.

Gordon

It IS actually a stolen German design- a nameless Junkers Attack
Project which started in 1941.

Gordon, you have my salute. You cast a lure... and your prey didn't just
swallow hook, line and sinker but ate the rod as well - before looking
around for a club to helpfully gaff himself!



--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

That's like fishing for Farm Trout, Gordon,

shhh. My bucket is almost full.



G

420 knots in the A-10...depends on whether or not we're talking indicated
airspeed or true. 420 indicated is a "book" speed...few Hog pilots ever see
that in the cockpit.

With a decent load, a typical max speed in a cool, sea level climate would
be about 350KIAS. Any hard maneuvering would bleed that down pretty fast.
Increase the temperature, and the jet's performance drops off
alarmingly...at Red Flag, we could get maybe 300KIAS on the deck after a
long run in. A 90 degree hard turn would bleed that down to about 250KIAS
which was our "knock it off" point.

The A-10 is quite maneuverable for its apparent size. WW2 fighter roll rates
were relatively slow compared to modern jets...and roll rate is a very
important aspect of turn performance. If the A-10 is clean, it can maneuver
very well in cool temperatures and low altitudes. It is not a high altitude
machine, and would not be a good comparison to a late WW2 fighter in that
sense.

The A-10 gun is a true laser beam in close in air combat...and today's Hog
has a much better gunsight than was in the early 1980s airplane. In Europe
back in the good old days, there was many a F-16 and F-15 pilot that lived
to rue the day that he got low and slow with the Hog.

But, after all is said and done, in these comparisons, we always have to
return to the only thing that is important. The pilot. Past that, most
everything else is conjecture.
"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
We've had a couple scenarios of aircraft going back in
time and speculation on what sort of effect they'd have.

I just saw a show on the A-10 Warthog with a top speed
of 420 mph. That's WWII fighter speeds (although I'm
not certain at what altitude).

Since an A-10 can carry something like 16,000 pounds of
weapons, at the speeds it flies, it would be one hell of
a WWII bomber. I'll bet even Art would ditch Willie in
a second to fly such a machine.

But what about as a fighter? Other than the extreme
ruggedness of the aircraft, would it have been any good
in fighter contests, especially in Europe, but in the
Pacific as well?

Seems the 30mm canon is a bit over kill for fighters.
Probably just load it up with a bunch of 20mm canons
in wings and as would fit in the nose.

It wouldn't be much good taking over mustang escort
duty since its range is only about 800 miles.

The aircraft seems very maneuverable, but I have no clue
how its roll rate, climb, dive and turn/stall performance
compare with a late WWII fighter of German or Japanese
pedigree.

Could an A-10 hold its own, or best, an Me 109 or FW 190?
An Oscar, Zero, Tony, Frank, whatever?

No doubt the marines in the Pacific would love the A-10
and the harrassed German ground transport would really
take a thrashing if this aircraft showed up. But would
the fighter opposition be quaking in their flight boots?


SMH

(robert arndt) wrote in message . com...
nt (Krztalizer) wrote in message ...
Few people know this, but the A-10 is actually a stolen WWII German design.
Sabotage at the factory and defeatist whiners kept the project from flying
before VE Day, but in 20 years the original plans will be released by the
military, clearly showing the RLM stamp in the upper left corner.

I know its true because I read it on Venik's website.

Gordon

It IS actually a stolen German design- a nameless Junkers Attack
Project which started in 1941.
From "Luftwaffe Secret Projects, Ground Attack & Special-Purpose
Aircraft" page 36:

http://www.luft46.com/junkers/jugap.html

SNIP
As a ground attack
aircraft, it was to have been equipped with four 30mm MK 103 and and
four 20mm MG 151/20 cannon.

The Mk103 had 140mm of penetration when firing tungsten cored
amunition from a FW190. From the faster jet it would have been more.



On the next page is pictured the A-10, a three-view of the Junkers
project, and both a schematic drawing and actual photo of the DB
109-007 turbojet on its engine test-bed. Accompanying note on the
A-10:

The DB 109-107 was actualy more of a turbofan. It had a rear combined
turbine-fan that at its inner (near the blade roots) and outer (i.e.
the tips) peripherty opperated as a fan while only 40% opperated as a
tubine. The cooling effect allowed a very high 1000C intlet
temperature, very high for the materials of the day.

The engine would have been extremely quiet because of the mixing of
fast and slow gases. You can see the rear fan inlet cowling on the
painting here.

http://www.luft46.com/junkers/jugap.html


" A Fairchild A-10 Thunderbolt prototype. Its similarity to the
Junkers design scheme is UNMISTAKEABLE. The propulsion units, mounted
in lateral fuselage nacelles were two General Electric TF 34-GE 100
bypass turbojets..."

Similar problems lead to similar solutions. Neverthelss it is an
indication that the Germans had grasped the tactical possibility of
the Jet. They were clearly after miracles to stop the masses of
Soviet tanks bearing down on them.

I don't think this designe would have been a goer for the Germans who
needed a faster aircraft to avoid interception. It greatest use would
have been in pluging tank breakthroughs. I thnk this speedier designe
would have been more usefull.
http://www.luft46.com/mess/mep10199.html


As for the A-10s revolver cannon- so what? The Germans had a range of
heavy Bordwaffe in development including the Duka 88. Even the A-10 in
WW2 would have been downed if hit in the engines with that baby!

Rob