Spins, Spiral Dives and Training

Okay guys, here's your new thread. Please...

Del asks "how well will pilots react if they unexpectedly get into a
spin or a spiral dive? Normally you gird your loins up first before
doing a deliberate spin!"

Answer: this depends on the pilot, of course. By the time you are
gaggle flying, thermaling up off ridges or flying in competition it
damned well better be automatic, reflexive.

The only point to doing deliberate spins by stalling straight ahead
and kicking rudder is to get some sense of how the sailplane behaves
and what it takes to recover from a fully developed spin. It might
also help you develop some sense of spin entry feel, but unintentional
spins normally come from some combination of turning, skidding flight,
gusts, etc. Oh, there's also the famous pilot who transitioned from
15m to std class and early on charged into a gaggle, pulled up,
reached for the "flap" handle and spun out of the gaggle with spoilers
deployed. UH, hUH! But I won't mention any names :-). I love that
story.

What you should practice is realistic spin entries from thermaling
turns and simulated pattern turns gone bad. Do 'em in all aircraft
configurations. In flapped ships the behavior changes quite a lot.
If you are fooling with CG location, check that out too. Your
responses can and should become fast and accurate. You should do this
until you aren't "girding your loins", you aren't tense. No panic.
Aircraft departs controlled flight: so what, you deal with it, get it
back.

regards,

Evan Ludeman / T8

On Jul 2, 9:09*am, T8 wrote:
Okay guys, here's your new thread. *Please...

Del asks "how well will pilots react if they unexpectedly get into a
spin or a spiral dive? Normally you gird your loins up first before
doing a deliberate spin!"

Answer: this depends on the pilot, of course. *By the time you are
gaggle flying, thermaling up off ridges or flying in competition it
damned well better be automatic, reflexive.

The only point to doing deliberate spins by stalling straight ahead
and kicking rudder is to get some sense of how the sailplane behaves
and what it takes to recover from a fully developed spin. *It might
also help you develop some sense of spin entry feel, but unintentional
spins normally come from some combination of turning, skidding flight,
gusts, etc. *Oh, there's also the famous pilot who transitioned from
15m to std class and early on charged into a gaggle, pulled up,
reached for the "flap" handle and spun out of the gaggle with spoilers
deployed. *UH, hUH! *But I won't mention any names :-). *I love that
story.

What you should practice is realistic spin entries from thermaling
turns and simulated pattern turns gone bad. *Do 'em in all aircraft
configurations. *In flapped ships the behavior changes quite a lot.
If you are fooling with CG location, check that out too. *Your
responses can and should become fast and accurate. *You should do this
until you aren't "girding your loins", you aren't tense. *No panic.
Aircraft departs controlled flight: so what, you deal with it, get it
back.

regards,

Evan Ludeman / T8

One of the scariest experiences I ever had was an inadvertant spin in
a 2-place Fox. It's an aerobatic glider by design, with limited
washout and anhedral, so it's not exactly typical of your modern
racing gliders. The owner had asked me to fly with him to improve
his thermalling skills. We went up on a booming day, and "I got it"
at about 4,000. "Now, first thing we need to do is to slow it down a
little bit ... like this... Then, we increase the bank a little bit
like this.. Now, if we get a good bump we just wait for a one-
Mississippi, then tighten up the turn using whatever it takes like
th....... WOA, WHAT THE...." Sky and earth reversed and we're
spinning like a top. Now, at that time I was flying about 130-150
hrs per year including instructing at least every weekend. I was just
about as current and ready as you could be. Yet, it took me a good
couple of seconds to sort things out. In the Swift, it's no big
deal, since it has a VNE of something approaching Mach 1.0, but I'll
tell you that it wasn't pretty. The owner (a very experienced
aerobatic competitor) just sat there up front chuckling.

The message here isn't about the Swift and it's nasty spinning
habits. It's about the fact that we probably ALL get a little
complacent from time to time. When we change some variables (in the
case above, a new ship with very different handling
characteristics), we probably don't realize how unprepared we are
for the consequences. Whenever I fly my LS8, I'm always greatful
for what a wonderful handling airplane it is. However, add some
water, fly on a turbulent day, get a little too aggressive on thermal
entry, and it will remind you fairly forcefully, that you've exceeded
its limitations. I suspect that we all need to spend more time
CONSCIOUSLY practicing flight at the edges of the controllable regime
in various configurations on a much more frequent basis. Short
wings without water. Short wings with water. Long wings without
water. Divebrakes in. Divebrakes out. Flaps positive. Flaps
negative. Whatever. In some regimes, our pussycats are more like a
wildcat, and we need to be able to recognize the onset of bad behavior
before it gets out of control.

P3

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...et/6905327.stm

On Jul 2, 7:09*am, T8 wrote:
Okay guys, here's your new thread. *Please...

Del asks "how well will pilots react if they unexpectedly get into a
spin or a spiral dive? Normally you gird your loins up first before
doing a deliberate spin!"

Answer: this depends on the pilot, of course. *By the time you are
gaggle flying, thermaling up off ridges or flying in competition it
damned well better be automatic, reflexive.

The only point to doing deliberate spins by stalling straight ahead
and kicking rudder is to get some sense of how the sailplane behaves
and what it takes to recover from a fully developed spin. *It might
also help you develop some sense of spin entry feel, but unintentional
spins normally come from some combination of turning, skidding flight,
gusts, etc. *Oh, there's also the famous pilot who transitioned from
15m to std class and early on charged into a gaggle, pulled up,
reached for the "flap" handle and spun out of the gaggle with spoilers
deployed. *UH, hUH! *But I won't mention any names :-). *I love that
story.

What you should practice is realistic spin entries from thermaling
turns and simulated pattern turns gone bad. *Do 'em in all aircraft
configurations. *In flapped ships the behavior changes quite a lot.
If you are fooling with CG location, check that out too. *Your
responses can and should become fast and accurate. *You should do this
until you aren't "girding your loins", you aren't tense. *No panic.
Aircraft departs controlled flight: so what, you deal with it, get it
back.

regards,

Evan Ludeman / T8

Getting a glider to transition to spinning starting from normal flight
with the airflow fully attached to the upper wing surface is difficult
- it just doesn't want to spin. The trick in getting realistic spin
departures is to set up an unstable flow with the glider already near
a stall.

The flow detachment/re-attachment phenomena can have some hysteresis
effects where the flow will momentarily 'hang on' beyond the stalling
AOA. Setting up a situation where the flow is just barely 'hanging
on' can take a few tens of seconds.

That's why I ask the student for a long 30 seconds plus of 'slow
flight'. While the student is doing this, I'm watching for an
increase in sink rate. If I can talk the student into this situation
of flying very slowly with abnormally high sink rate, any attempt to
turn will result in a sudden, and usually unexpected, spin departure.
The key is timing. The turn has to begin before the airspeed
increases again and the flow returns to stability.

I actually think this is the real killer spin. The pilot gets
distracted, perhaps the trim is still set for thermalling, the
airspeed drifts lower and lower. The glider begins to mush in a semi-
stalled state until the pilot attempts a sharp turn....

On Jul 2, 9:35*am, bildan wrote:
snip

I actually think this is the real killer spin. *The pilot gets
distracted, perhaps the trim is still set for thermalling, the
airspeed drifts lower and lower. *The glider begins to mush in a semi-
stalled state until the pilot attempts a sharp turn....- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think you have hit it here. I have see this many times when doing
stalls with students and even some fairly experienced pilots.
It is one thing to be on the trigger ready to recover from a spin. It
is totally another to be wondering why the nose is dropping and the
ailerons are not working for no apparent reason.
I have even read an accident report where the pilot reported that he
thought the ailerons have became disconnected becuase they were
ineffective.

I totally believe most stall spin accident soccur because the pilot is
not thinking about a stall spin and is not on the hair trigger ready
to recover, .i.e. they are distracted from this issue.

Brian

On 2 July, 20:21, Brian wrote:

I totally believe most stall spin accident soccur because the pilot is
not thinking about a stall spin and is not on the hair trigger ready
to recover, .i.e. they are distracted from this issue.

I believe that many of the spin accidents in the UK occur because most
pilots are trained ab initio in unspinnable gliders and, whatever
their instructors say, end up believing deep down that spins have to
be specially provoked in specially prepared or chosen aircraft.

What glider has killed most pilots in spins? The K21.

Ian

That is a bit unfair on the K21!. The training glider that has killed the
most pilots in spin related accidents in the UK is easily the Puchacz,
latest count about 14 I believe.

The K21 is a very safe glider in itself, but even that will do enough of a
wing drop to have you into the ground off a poorly executed low final turn.
My club still uses K13s as its basic trainer as it will just about drop
wings and spin if you force it to, but it is still more docile than many
single seaters.

You are getting into the debate about whether deliberate spin training
kills more people than accidental spins.

I know from personal experience that an unexpected spin, e.g. in a rough
thermal, can come as a bit of a shock, and it can take time to remember
what to do about it.

Derek Copeland

At 09:17 03 July 2009, Ian wrote:
On 2 July, 20:21, Brian wrote:

I totally believe most stall spin accident soccur because the pilot is
not thinking about a stall spin and is not on the hair trigger ready
to recover, .i.e. they are distracted from this issue.

I believe that many of the spin accidents in the UK occur because most
pilots are trained ab initio in unspinnable gliders and, whatever
their instructors say, end up believing deep down that spins have to
be specially provoked in specially prepared or chosen aircraft.

What glider has killed most pilots in spins? The K21.

Ian

At 11:00 03 July 2009, Del C wrote: (Snip)
The training glider that has killed the
most pilots in spin related accidents in the UK is easily the Puchacz,
latest count about 14 I believe.

And no positively identified cause, the conclusion has always been that
the spin in was caused by an error of skill by the pilot but that is
difficult to confirm. It could be that under certain loading conditions
the Putchaz is irrecoverable from a spin, we may never know for certain.
We do know that the Putchaz is a very dangerous glider, and has been
involved in more than it's fair share of accidents.

You are getting into the debate about whether deliberate spin training
kills more people than accidental spins.

There is no debate, more people are killed in deliberately induced spins
than in accidental ones and yet people still deliberately spin at
ridiculously low altitudes, and by that I mean below 2500ft.

This despite the fact that knowing the spin recovery procedure would be
unlikely to help in the most common spin, that off the final turn. The
only thing that would help there is spotting the impending spin before it
happened but little or no emphasis is placed on this in current training.
We have the situation where the most life threatening situation is not
addressed by proper training and an aspect, which gives an instructor the
opportunity to scare his pupil witless, is very well covered.
Current spin training is more about addressing the needs of the
instructors than about addressing the need of their pupils. I would
suggest that not commencing spin recovery procedure in a low spin, as off
the final turn, would be more likely to save your life than getting part
way through the recovery.

More emphasis is needed on recognition of the lead up and prevention, if
that was done properly then we might improve things. By all means teach it
but rather than checking recovery every year check the ability to recognise
and prevent. Less risk and the potential of greater benefit, it would also
reduce the need for clubs to own the potentially lethal Putchaz as the
recognition and prevention could be done in any two seater.

On 3 July, 12:00, Del C wrote:
That is a bit unfair on the K21!. The training glider that has killed the
most pilots in spin related accidents in the UK is easily the Puchacz,
latest count about 14 I believe.

That is, if I may say so, the mistake too many people make. Sure, more
people have died in the Puchacz, but I am quite sure that the K21 has
killed a lot more indirectly.

I know from personal experience that an unexpected spin, e.g. in a rough
thermal, can come as a bit of a shock, and it can take time to remember
what to do about it.

Don't we all?

Ian

In message
, Ian
writes
On 2 July, 20:21, Brian wrote:

I totally believe most stall spin accident soccur because the pilot is
not thinking about a stall spin and is not on the hair trigger ready
to recover, .i.e. they are distracted from this issue.

I believe that many of the spin accidents in the UK occur because most
pilots are trained ab initio in unspinnable gliders and, whatever
their instructors say, end up believing deep down that spins have to
be specially provoked in specially prepared or chosen aircraft.

What glider has killed most pilots in spins? The K21.

However the two recent accidents both involved US pilots, presumably
trained in the US. Is the K21 so ubiquitous over there?

BTW have seen folks allowed to fly the K21 solo without spin training,
but *not* the Juniors.

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Surfer!
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